AdvisorTeam PersonalityZone N E W S L E T T E R - June, 2001
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Click here for the enhanced online version of our newsletter:
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IN THIS ISSUE:
TEMPERAMENT IN ACTION: What's Your Dad's Type?
GIFT GUIDE : What Does Dad Want?
MOVIE REVIEW: Pearl Harbor
NEW ADVISORTEAM SERVICES: Give The Gift of Personality!
CARTOON: Prom Night: Meet Dad
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TEMPERAMENT IN ACTION: What's Your Dad's Type?
AdvisorTeam Explores the Four Temperaments of Dad
Your Dad may have seemed a bit of a mystery to you growing up.
Find out what he may have been thinking all those years by learning
about the Guardian, Artisan, Idealist and Rational Dads.
http://mailings.advisorteam.com/redir3/AHA_OMCAB!http://www.advisorteam.com/newsletter0601/DadsTypeIntro.html
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GIFT GUIDE: What Does Dad Want?
Ties?, Golf Balls?, or Leather Appointment Calendars?
Find out how well you know your Dad...
Then get him what he really wants this Father's Day.
http://mailings.advisorteam.com/redir3/AHA_OMCAB!http://www.advisorteam.com/newsletter0601/gifts.html
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MOVIE REVIEW: Pearl Harbor
Special Effects, But No Special People
The creative process can be mysterious. Do great authors
intentionally craft temperament (or any other theory of human
psychology) into their characters? Or do fully dimensional
characters selectively make their visitations into the heads of
certain writers?
http://mailings.advisorteam.com/redir3/AHA_OMCAB!http://www.advisorteam.com/newsletter0601/PearlHarbor.html
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ADVISORTEAM SERVICES
Give The Gift Of Personality To Dad!
Share the gift of personality with your father, or with a friend,
relative, or coworker. For only $14.95, you and your father can
use the in-depth insights provided in the Keirsey AdvisorTeam
Report to celebrate your differences. Click below to purchase the
Keirsey Temperament Sorter II and Keirsey AdvisorTeam Report for
Dad and send him a personalized Father's Day message.
http://mailings.advisorteam.com/redir3/AHA_OMCAB!http://www.advisorteam.com/gift/intro.asp
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CARTOON
Jeni Rae Duschak with "Prom Night: Meet Dad"
Cartoonist Jeni Rae Duschak gives her take on what it's like for
a date to meet Dad, accompanied by Barbara Saunders' descriptions
of father-child interaction.
http://mailings.advisorteam.com/redir3/AHA_OMCAB!http://www.advisorteam.com/newsletter0601/Cartoon.html
http://mailings.advisorteam.com/redir3/AHA_OMCAB!http://www.advisorteam.com/newsletter0601/Cartoon.html
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From tferrera2000 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 8 18:59:47 2001
From: tferrera2000 at yahoo.com (tferrera2000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 18:59:47
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200106082359.QAA05928@ecotone.toad.com>
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From Not.JUST.Another.... at toad.com Fri Jun 8 16:28:13 2001
From: Not.JUST.Another.... at toad.com (Not.JUST.Another.... at toad.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 19:28:13 -0400
Subject: Errr..., uhhh...,Hey!!
Message-ID: <20010608232812.GGER8816.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@dmactds>
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From Not.JUST.Another.... at toad.com Fri Jun 8 17:15:00 2001
From: Not.JUST.Another.... at toad.com (Not.JUST.Another.... at toad.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 20:15:00 -0400
Subject: Yeeee...Hawww..., HEY!
Message-ID: <20010609001500.HZMF9408.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@dmactds>
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From dumbshit at marini.org Fri Jun 8 20:19:26 2001
From: dumbshit at marini.org (Francis Marini)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 20:19:26 -0700
Subject: Francis Marini, "republican", needs to read the constitution
Message-ID: <3B2195BD.EBABC54B@marini.org>
This organ-incubator needs to read the constitution. Satan is an angel;
angels are protected from govt interference as religious entities.
This guy is supressing his urges. He drinks baby blood, when he's not
plooking them.
BILL BARS SEX SITES AT LIBRARY
Steve LeBlanc, Associated Press writer
South Coast Today (Massachusetts)
http://www.s-t.com/daily/06-01/06-04-01/a04sr023.htm
Surfing for smut at local libraries would be barred under a bill set to
be
heard by Beacon Hill lawmakers today.
The measure, sponsored by Republican House leader Francis Marini, would
also
block Internet access to "satanic cults," "indecent depictions of bodily
functions" and "illicit drugs, alcohol or tobacco products."
From maimun_muhammad at eudoramail.com Fri Jun 8 06:22:56 2001
From: maimun_muhammad at eudoramail.com (maimun uwiek muhammad)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 20:22:56 +0700
Subject: (No Subject)
Message-ID:
From hseaver at ameritech.net Fri Jun 8 18:48:41 2001
From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 20:48:41 -0500
Subject: FW: City Tree Rapers
References: <01E446B40445D311A3AC00805F7DC7F73C3EA5@oshkoshmis02.oshkosh
.city.wi.us>
Message-ID: <3B218077.806121C9@ameritech.net>
Libel? Or really! And just who, pray tell, is being libeled? Let
whoever thinks they are being libeled have at it. Politicians sue the press
for libel? Don't be ridiculous. This is political speech and is entirely
protect by the 1st admendment. Even someone like you has, I'm sure, heard of
the Constitution and Bill of Rights, freedom of the press and all that, eh?
I'm sure all the readers of my website -- and they are from all over
the US, including Alaska, and from Canada, England, New Zealand, and Australia
-- will get quite a chuckle over your email that I'm posting on my site
tonight.
"Kraft, Warren P." wrote:
> Dear Mr. Seaver:
>
> The mayor invites you to come forward with proof to support your
> allegations of kickbacks at city hall, as posted on your website.
> http://www.oshkoshbygosh.org
>
> You surely can attend the next Common Council meeting, which begins at
> 6PM on Tuesday, June 12, 2001, in Room 406 of City Hall, 215 Church Avenue.
> There is a portion near the meeting's end, entitled Citizen Statements,
> during which time you have ample opportunity to substantiate your claims.
>
> Otherwise, if you do not have such proof, you ought to consult with legal
> counsel to determine what appropriate retractions should be published. You
> might be aware that defamation of character, also known as libel, can result
> in civil lawsuits against the defamer. In addition, you may wish to ask
> about unauthorized use of portions of the City of Oshkosh website.
>
> Please do not misinterpret this as an effort to stifle appropriate public
> discussion about municipal issues. Valid, public opinions ought not lead
> one into legal trouble unless intended to do so.
>
> Thank you very much,
> Warren P. Kraft
> City Attorney's Office
> 215 Church Ave
> P. O. Box 1130
> Oshkosh WI 54903-1130
> (920) 236-5115
> fax: 920-236-5090
>
> PS Just so there is no misunderstanding, I do not consent to your
> publication of these comments in any fashion other than during a
> consultation with your legal counsel, should you so choose. Feel free to
> contact me directly about any questions you may have in these areas.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dell'Antonia, Jon
> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 4:35 PM
> To: Kraft, Warren P.
> Subject: FW: City Tree Rapers
>
> You need to take a look at this guys web site. I think he has gone to far
> and I would like for you to "nail him to the cross" if you can. My issue is
> with his comments of kickbacks at city hall. This is a serious charge and
> he should either come forward with proof,and we should take appropriate
> action, or have to put out a retraction on his site. That is what I would
> like you to go after him about.
>
> It is one thing for him to blow off steam with his opinions, but this is a
> specific charge of illegal doings and I do not think we should let him get
> away with it. I think it is "put up or shut up" time.
>
> If you would like to discuss what we can do or we need a session on it, then
> lets have it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cityboy at cybershamanix.com
> To: mharris at ci.oshkosh.wi.us
> Cc: mbloechl at ci.oshkosh.wi.us; jdellantonia at ci.oshkosh.wi.us;
> shintz at ci.oshkosh.wi.us
> Sent: 6/6/01 2:45 PM
> Subject: City Tree Rapers
>
> http://www.oshkoshbygosh.org
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com
Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net
From freematt at coil.com Fri Jun 8 17:58:57 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 20:58:57 -0400
Subject: Ian Grigg's Crypto Fiction Choices
Message-ID:
From ibmmail at vrmnamail.ibm.com Fri Jun 8 14:30:54 2001
From: ibmmail at vrmnamail.ibm.com (IBM DeveloperWorks)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 21:30:54 +0000 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: ADV: Hands-on technical sessions in Java, EJB, JSP, J2EE and more
Message-ID: <1713410087.992035854836.JavaMail.develop@blauws002>
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Java and all Java-based trademarks are trademarks of Sun
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of IBM Corporation in the United States, other countries,
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From hseaver at ameritech.net Fri Jun 8 19:33:06 2001
From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 21:33:06 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: FW: City Tree Rapers]
Message-ID: <3B218ADD.D2FEC7E0@ameritech.net>
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com
Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net
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From florin at svshop.com Fri Jun 8 18:37:36 2001
From: florin at svshop.com (Florin)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 21:37:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TaxB.com, TaxWebPages.com now for sale!
Message-ID: <007c01c0f085$3825eca0$0201a8c0@pacbell.net>
Click on:
www.afternic.com/~TAXB.com
www.afternic.com/~TaxWebPages.com
and see the prices!
From jya at pipeline.com Fri Jun 8 22:18:32 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 22:18:32 -0700
Subject: Homeland Defense and the Prosecution of Jim Bell
Message-ID: <200106090219.WAA03158@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
http://cartome.org/homeland.htm
"So, say goodnight to Joshua ..."
Homeland Defense and the Prosecution of Jim Bell
Deborah Natsios
Cartome
8 June 2001
A sparsely attended trial which unfolded in Tacomas US district
courthouse the first week of April 2001 hardly seemed an event
that might open a small but revealing view onto the shifting national
security apparatus. But to outside observers following the criminal
prosecution of Washington State resident Jim Bell, accused of
stalking and intimidating local agents of the IRS, Treasury
Department and BATF, the defendant was a symptomatic target,
and the governments stated case against him only a fragment of
a more complex campaign linked to the evolving landscape of
national and homeland defense.
In the governments estimation, Bell had placed its Pacific Northwest
agents "in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury"1. But for
some trial-watchers, the case against James Dalton Bell, 43, was
underpinned by a constellation of factors that made him more than
the disaffected neighbor projecting antigovernment bile. Bell had
invited the governments fullest prosecutorial zeal because his
technical skills placed him in more ambiguous terrain, that of
untested gray zones within emerging national defense landscapes,
which, by calling into question the impregnability of the national
border, have been taking national security tactics incountry in
unprecedented ways, deploying new rules of engagement to
challenge national security threats within the US domestic interior.
Chapters:
Homeland
WarCoast
Cypherpunks
PosterBoy
Joshua
Tacoma
Doppleganger
BattlespaceSuburbia
Holdout
From hseaver at ameritech.net Fri Jun 8 20:45:51 2001
From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 22:45:51 -0500
Subject: lne.com
Message-ID: <3B219BEE.42E206E4@ameritech.net>
Looks like lne.com is down since this afternoon --
anyone know what's up with that?
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com
Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net
From hseaver at ameritech.net Fri Jun 8 20:59:41 2001
From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 22:59:41 -0500
Subject: Prior Restraint
Message-ID: <3B219F2C.894E4D3C@ameritech.net>
Looks like the city of Oshberg would like to shut down
my website -- http://www.oshkoshbygosh.org. Notice when you
read the city attorney's email to me that he's trying to
enjoin me with a little prior restraint re publishing his
email to me. Of course, I immediately put it up on the
site. Note the email from the mayor to him that he
included, wonderful stuff.
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com
Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net
From juicy at melontraffickers.com Sat Jun 9 08:10:02 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 08:10:02 -0700
Subject: Subject: Re: Ed Felten and researchers sue RIAA, DOJ over right to publish
Message-ID: <028af6f1a29808708d17842f41e95d18@melontraffickers.com>
Check out "F*ck the Creationists" by MC Hawking:
http://www.mchawking.com/music.html.
You can lay the funky shit on them creationists.
Alan Olsen wrote:
>To: David Honig
>Cc: mmotyka at lsil.com, cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
>Subject: Re: Ed Felten and researchers sue RIAA, DOJ over right to publish
>
>On Wed, 6 Jun 2001, David Honig wrote:
>
>> We are all scientists.
>>
>> And really, we are: even children apply the scientific method. Its not
>> rocket science.
>
>You have not dealt with many Creationists I take it...
From tmcv at prison.net Sat Jun 9 09:16:37 2001
From: tmcv at prison.net (Timothy McVeigh)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 09:16:37 -0700
Subject: CAL ISO *internal ops* machines cracked
Message-ID: <3B224BE4.AF2B3A92@prison.net>
SACRAMENTO
For at least 17 days at the height of the energy crisis, hackers
mounted an attack on a computer system that is integral to the movement
of electricity throughout California, a confidential report obtained by
The Times shows.
The hackers' success, though apparently limited, brought to
light
lapses in computer security at the target of the cyber-attack, the
California Independent System Operator, which oversees most of the
state's massive electricity transmission grid.
Officials at Cal-ISO say that the lapses have been corrected
and that
there was no threat to the grid. But others familiar with the attack say
hackers came close to gaining access to key parts of the system, and
could have seriously disrupted the movement of electricity across the
state.
Democratic and Republican lawmakers were angered by the
security
breach at an entity that is such a basic part of California's power
system, given its fragility during the state's continuing energy crisis.
One called the attack "ominous."
An internal agency report, stamped "restricted," shows that the
attack
began as early as April 25 and was not detected until May 11. The report
says the main attack was routed through China Telecom from someone in
Guangdong province in China.
In addition to using China Telecom, hackers entered the system
by
using Internet servers based in Santa Clara in Northern California and
Tulsa, Okla., the report says. James Sample, the computer security
specialist at Cal-ISO who wrote the report, said he could not tell for
certain where the attackers were located.
"You don't know where people are really from," Sample said.
"The only
reason China stuck out is because of the recent political agenda China
had with the U.S. . . . An ambitious U.S. hacker could have posed as a
Chinese hacker."
The breach occurred amid heightened Sino-American tensions
after the
collision between a Chinese military jet and a U.S. spy plane. In early
May, there were hundreds of publicly reported computer attacks
apparently
originating from China. Most of those incidents involved mischief;
anti-American slogans were scrawled on government Web sites.
The attack on the Cal-ISO computer system apparently had the
potential
for more serious consequences, given that the hackers managed to worm
their way into the computers at the agency's headquarters in Folsom,
east
of Sacramento, that were linked to a system that controls the flow of
electricity across California. The state system is tied into the
transmission grid for the Western United States.
"This was very close to being a catastrophic breach," said a
source
familiar with the attack and Cal-ISO's internal investigation of the
incident.
On May 7 and 8, as the infiltration was occurring, California
suffered
widespread rolling blackouts, but Cal-ISO officials said Friday that
there was no connection between the hacking and the outages, which
affected more than 400,000 utility customers.
"It did not affect markets or reliability," said Stephanie
McCorkle, a
spokeswoman for Cal-ISO.
Officials of the agency made no public acknowledgment of the
attack
until Friday when contacted by The Times. The agency did, however, call
the FBI, which is investigating.
McCorkle said Cal-ISO did not make a public disclosure about
the
hacking "because it didn't impact the reliability of any of our internal
networks."
"It didn't have a negative consequence and would not have
impacted the
public or market participants," McCorkle said.
After the attack was discovered, the report says, investigators
found
evidence that the hackers apparently were trying to "compile" or write
software that might have allowed them to get past so-called firewalls
protecting far more sensitive parts of the computer system.
The attackers focused on parts of the grid agency's computer
system
that are under development. In what may have been the most significant
lapse, the system being developed was not behind a firewall, a security
element designed to keep out those who are not entitled to access.
Additionally, so-called tripwires that might have alerted
agency
security personnel to the unauthorized entry were nonexistent. Nor were
there logs within the system that might have identified users entering
the system as the infiltration was occurring, the report notes.
What's more, dozens of ports into the computer system were
open, when
only a handful should have been available.
"All servers should be hardened regardless of their role or
location
in the network," the report says. "Only ports that are required to be
open should be opened; all others should be disabled."
Complicating the investigation, workers at Cal-ISO rebooted
their
computers when the machines balked, apparently in response to the
infiltration.
"This action limited our ability to discover all files and
activity
that may be related to this compromise," the report says.
Sample, the security engineer who wrote the report, downplayed
the
potential threat and said the attack was "something that we've been
anticipating."
"It was a compromise, not really an attack," he said.
State legislators were not comforted by such distinctions.
"That's really amazing on two counts: that there were computers
not
behind a firewall and it took 17 days to discover," said state Sen.
Debra
Bowen (D-Marina del Rey), who chairs her chamber's Energy Committee.
Bowen, who was informed of the breach by The Times, called it a
"serious matter" and said she was "very concerned to learn about this
from the L.A. Times, rather than from the ISO itself." The lack of
official notification, she said, adds to her skepticism about whether
the
agency has been forthcoming.
"It is embarrassing, so I can understand they would not want to
talk
about it," Bowen said. "We're going to ask some questions."
The Independent System Operator, established in 1998 when the
state
opened the newly deregulated electricity market to competition, is an
essential component of the state's electricity system.
The purpose of the nonprofit entity is to balance the flow of
electricity across the state and make last-minute power purchases to
match demand and avoid blackouts. The Legislature reconfigured the
agency
earlier this year, giving Gov. Gray Davis the power to appoint the
five-member board that oversees it.
"It is troubling that it happened," said Sen. Tom McClintock
(R-Thousand Oaks). "It is disturbing that it took so long to be
corrected. And it is galling that it was not reported to the
Legislature."
McClintock labeled as "ominous" the possibility that the attack
came
from China. He said he is preparing a request for all documents related
to the breach and is considering requesting a formal legislative
inquiry.
ISO board member Mike Florio, who represents consumers, said he
had a
vague recollection that the board was informed of the attack. But he
also
was surprised to learn some of the details.
"We hire people to deal with this stuff," he said, "and they
said they
dealt with it."
http://www.latimes.com/news/front/20010609/t000047994.html
From jya at pipeline.com Sat Jun 9 09:27:25 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 09:27:25 -0700
Subject: Homeland Defense and the Prosecution of Jim Bell
Message-ID: <200106091328.JAA29317@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
(Resent, LNE is down)
http://cartome.org/homeland.htm (72KB)
"So, say goodnight to Joshua ..."
Homeland Defense and the Prosecution of Jim Bell
Deborah Natsios
Cartome
8 June 2001
A sparsely attended trial which unfolded in Tacoma�s US district
courthouse the first week of April 2001 hardly seemed an event
that might open a small but revealing view onto the shifting national
security apparatus. But to outside observers following the criminal
prosecution of Washington State resident Jim Bell, accused of
stalking and intimidating local agents of the IRS, Treasury
Department and BATF, the defendant was a symptomatic target,
and the government�s stated case against him only a fragment of
a more complex campaign linked to the evolving landscape of
national and homeland defense.
In the government�s estimation, Bell had placed its Pacific Northwest
agents "in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury"1. But for
some trial-watchers, the case against James Dalton Bell, 43, was
underpinned by a constellation of factors that made him more than
the disaffected neighbor projecting antigovernment bile. Bell had
invited the government�s fullest prosecutorial zeal because his
technical skills placed him in more ambiguous terrain, that of
untested gray zones within emerging national defense landscapes,
which, by calling into question the impregnability of the national
border, have been taking national security tactics incountry in
unprecedented ways, deploying new rules of engagement to
challenge national security threats within the US domestic interior.
Sections:
Homeland
WarCoast
Cypherpunks
PosterBoy
Joshua
Tacoma
Doppleganger
BattlespaceSuburbia
Holdout
From esj at harvee.billerica.ma.us Sat Jun 9 08:36:11 2001
From: esj at harvee.billerica.ma.us (Eric S. Johansson)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 11:36:11 -0400
Subject: [camram-spam] long commentary from a knowledgeable outsider
Message-ID:
I wanted to try and get a rough approximation of hardware costs and
performance for a hardware based attack against hashcash postage. So I
wrote to Nicko van Someren. I chose Niko because I heard him speak that
the digital commerce society of Boston on some of the scaling issues
regarding a micromint[1] based currency system. A nutshell, he pretty well
demolished the feasibility of micromint.
In general, Nicko is not a fan of proof of work systems for a variety of
reasons but he has some really good information that he gave me permission
to share with the hashcash group. In my opinion, the content convinced me
that hashcash will provide a degree of defense against Spam. On the
downside, there are some serious issues regarding theft of service and bulk
generation of stamps but I don't consider them a mortal wound, it's just a
wound that bleeds real heavily...
Please read the entire message before commenting because I may have
addressed some of the points further on.
[1]http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/RivestShamir-mpay.pdf
--- eric
-----------------------
my question to Nicko was:
"""My primary concern is that there is a risk that someone could define a
hashcash coin generator using relatively cheap hardware (e.g. FPGA) and
enable the at home spammer to generate lots of coins. I'm wondering if you
would be willing to do a first-order approximation analysis on the cost
versus speed curve for hardware generating hashcash coins? """
to which he replied:
At 12:00 PM 6/8/2001 +0100, Nicko van Someren wrote:
> Hashcash is different to MicroMint in that, as long as the
>stamp is correctly constructed it will be hard to do any precomputation
>to make bulk mailing more efficient and the economies of scale that
>are both the key to and the downfall of MicroMint do not apply. That
>said, the cost of repetitive bulk computation is nearly always
>sub-linear in the amount of work to be done.
>
> The problems with proof of work schemes are many and varied.
>The most obvious is the inequality of the amount of processing power
>available to different people, or indeed to the same person in different
>contexts. I send mail from both a 733 MHz G4 PowerPC (in an Apple Mac)
>and a 16 MHz 68000 (in a Palm Pilot). Since the mail recipient can not
>reliably tell from which machine I sent then mail either it is going
>to take a couple of minutes to send a mail from the Palm or it will
>only take a second but I can forge spam as having come from the Palm
>and send hundreds a second from the Mac. To make matters worse, those
>who would spam have already shown themselves to not be beyond using
>the computing resources of others so I think that we can be confident
>that spam would be sent using "stolen stamps".
>
> To address your specific question about hardware, as a rough
>guess, special hardware can do the same work as a general purpose CPU
>in about 0.1 to 0.2 as many clock ticks. For hash functions and some
>block ciphers (e.g. DES) the speed up can be even greater. What's more,
>since these days the fast FPGAs have more gates than you can shake a
>stick at you will be able to put multiple engines on one chip and I
>would expect that an off the shelf Xylinx development card with a big,
>fast gate array directly on the PCI bus would in practice be able to
>compute a SHA1 of something as small as an email address, date and
>integer at a rate a good 500 times faster than my PowerPC. This
>of course would depend on the hash algorithm and the amount of data
>used. You could strengthen against the use of hardware by using a
>system that needed more memory and used functions such as multiply
>operations which are expensive in hardware but which CPU designers
>spend a lot of effort upon.
>
> Given that a $2000 PCI bus card will let me send spam to
>10,000 people in the same time that a legitimate user can send a
>party invitation to 20 friends I expect that a SHA-1 based "proof
>of work" stamp is not going to be useful to spammers. All that it
>will do is make the sale of email addresses more profitable since
>there will be a market for "stamped, addresses envelopes" for
>which you can charge $100 for 100,000 instead of the current rate
>of $50 per million filtered addresses.
>
> In short, I don't think proof of work based stamps will do
>much for reducing spam. I think that to do that we need a more
>innovative solution. If there were a ubiquitous micropayment scheme
>in circulation then I would go for a system that required cold hard
>cash to be sent with each email from someone you have not listed in
>your "free list". For most spam you'll get some cash, making large
>scale spam less cost effective as an advertising method, and if it
>is from someone that you really want to talk to you'll just send the
>cash back with your first mail back to the sender.
>
> So that's my 2 pennies worth (or 2,000,000,000 CPU cycles!)
>
> Nicko
my reply was:
>At 12:00 PM 6/8/2001 +0100, Nicko van Someren wrote:
>> The problems with proof of work schemes are many and varied.
>>The most obvious is the inequality of the amount of processing power
>>available to different people, or indeed to the same person in different
>>contexts. I send mail from both a 733 MHz G4 PowerPC (in an Apple Mac)
>>and a 16 MHz 68000 (in a Palm Pilot). Since the mail recipient can not
>>reliably tell from which machine I sent then mail either it is going
>>to take a couple of minutes to send a mail from the Palm or it will
>>only take a second but I can forge spam as having come from the Palm
>>and send hundreds a second from the Mac. To make matters worse, those
>>who would spam have already shown themselves to not be beyond using
>>the computing resources of others so I think that we can be confident
>>that spam would be sent using "stolen stamps".
>
>on the range of processing power issue, I believe a more realistic
>bottom-line would be around a Pentium I/200 MHz. Wouldn't any e-mail
>coming from a PalmPilot go through some form of a conduit on the higher
>performance machine? That conduit could generate stamps.
>
>On the point about forging what class of machine as a way of getting out
>of generating "expensive" stamps, we were not going to adjust the stamp
>based on the senders resources.
>
>On the point about stolen stamps, I was planning on defeating that by
>making hashcash be a client to client protocol and the only thing
>intervening machines might do is validate that the stamp is present.
>
>>[hardware description snipped]
>> Given that a $2000 PCI bus card will let me send spam to
>>10,000 people in the same time that a legitimate user can send a
>>party invitation to 20 friends I expect that a SHA-1 based "proof
>>of work" stamp is not going to be useful to spammers. All that it
>>will do is make the sale of email addresses more profitable since
>>there will be a market for "stamped, addresses envelopes" for
>>which you can charge $100 for 100,000 instead of the current rate
>>of $50 per million filtered addresses.
>
>your thoughts are confirming one suspicion which is that even if hashcash
>hardware was implemented, it would raise the cost of spamming and cut out
>some of the more cost sensitive portions of the market. Remember that
>each stamp can only be used once and that it's only good for a finite
>period of time (for example, eight days). It would make it more difficult
>for a spammer to deliver continual postage because in their
>precalculation, they would need to create stamps that would be valid in
>the future for a limited period of time.
>
>This still opens the market for spammer hardware to the at home spammer
>where they would sell boards in addition to the list of e-mail addresses.
>
>> In short, I don't think proof of work based stamps will do
>>much for reducing spam. I think that to do that we need a more
>>innovative solution. If there were a ubiquitous micropayment scheme
>>in circulation then I would go for a system that required cold hard
>>cash to be sent with each email from someone you have not listed in
>>your "free list". For most spam you'll get some cash, making large
>>scale spam less cost effective as an advertising method, and if it
>>is from someone that you really want to talk to you'll just send the
>>cash back with your first mail back to the sender.
>
>it would be a short-term solution that would work until the hardware folks
>catch up. I think it's worth moving ahead with the technique anyway
>because it would create the infrastructure necessary for incorporating
>micropayments.
>
>I need to run out now but I may send more thoughts later.
>
>I very much appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.
>
>---eric
to which he replied to my reply...
At 05:02 PM 6/8/2001 +0100, Nicko van Someren wrote:
>"Eric S. Johansson" wrote:
> >
> > I would like permission to forward bits of your message to the hashcash
> > mailing list.
>
>Sure, as long as you quote me in context.
>
> > > The problems with proof of work schemes are many and varied.
> > >The most obvious is the inequality of the amount of processing power
> > >available to different people, or indeed to the same person in different
> > >contexts. I send mail from both a 733 MHz G4 PowerPC (in an Apple Mac)
> > >and a 16 MHz 68000 (in a Palm Pilot). Since the mail recipient can not
> > >reliably tell from which machine I sent then mail either it is going
> > >to take a couple of minutes to send a mail from the Palm or it will
> > >only take a second but I can forge spam as having come from the Palm
> > >and send hundreds a second from the Mac. To make matters worse, those
> > >who would spam have already shown themselves to not be beyond using
> > >the computing resources of others so I think that we can be confident
> > >that spam would be sent using "stolen stamps".
> >
> > on the range of processing power issue, I believe a more realistic
> > bottom-line would be around a Pentium I/200 MHz. Wouldn't any e-mail
> > coming from a PalmPilot go through some form of a conduit on the higher
> > performance machine? That conduit could generate stamps.
>
>I post directly from handhelds all the time but if you were to introduce
>HashCash you could indeed mandate a gateway (with suitable sign-on) for
>posting from light weight devices.
>
> > On the point about forging what class of machine as a way of getting out of
> > generating "expensive" stamps, we were not going to adjust the stamp based
> > on the senders resources.
>
>I think that having one size fit all will either render prefectly
>legitimate posting way to slow in some circumstances or make it
>too easy for the commited spammer to produce.
>
> > On the point about stolen stamps, I was planning on defeating that by
> > making hashcash be a client to client protocol and the only thing
> > intervening machines might do is validate that the stamp is present.
>
>Unless you plan to rebuild the structure of the internet's email
>system this is going to be sent in the RFC822 header. You can't
>have challenge-response stamps for store-and-forward email. Even
>if you could deal with this there is no way to stop the turely nasty
>spammer from just cracking someone else's machine and using it to
>compute stamps for him.
>
> > >[hardware description snipped]
> > > Given that a $2000 PCI bus card will let me send spam to
> > >10,000 people in the same time that a legitimate user can send a
> > >party invitation to 20 friends I expect that a SHA-1 based "proof
> > >of work" stamp is not going to be useful to spammers. All that it
> > >will do is make the sale of email addresses more profitable since
> > >there will be a market for "stamped, addresses envelopes" for
> > >which you can charge $100 for 100,000 instead of the current rate
> > >of $50 per million filtered addresses.
> >
> > your thoughts are confirming one suspicion which is that even if hashcash
> > hardware was implemented, it would raise the cost of spamming and cut out
> > some of the more cost sensitive portions of the market. Remember that each
> > stamp can only be used once and that it's only good for a finite period of
> > time (for example, eight days). It would make it more difficult for a
> > spammer to deliver continual postage because in their precalculation, they
> > would need to create stamps that would be valid in the future for a limited
> > period of time.
>
>I don't see this as a problem. Most people who spam buy in the mailing
>list from somewhere. Unless they plan to sit on the list for a long
>time (i.e. more than a week) then they could buy in the bulk stamps too.
>I bet the address dealers will cut you a deal if you come back for a
>second round of stamps too.
>
> > This still opens the market for spammer hardware to the at home spammer
> > where they would sell boards in addition to the list of e-mail addresses.
>
>Or allow you to log into their secure server and submit a list of
>1,000,0000 addresses which would be stamped in a matter of minutes
>for a small charge.
>
> > > In short, I don't think proof of work based stamps will do
> > >much for reducing spam. I think that to do that we need a more
> > >innovative solution. If there were a ubiquitous micropayment scheme
> > >in circulation then I would go for a system that required cold hard
> > >cash to be sent with each email from someone you have not listed in
> > >your "free list". For most spam you'll get some cash, making large
> > >scale spam less cost effective as an advertising method, and if it
> > >is from someone that you really want to talk to you'll just send the
> > >cash back with your first mail back to the sender.
> >
> > it would be a short-term solution that would work until the hardware folks
> > catch up. I think it's worth moving ahead with the technique anyway
> > because it would create the infrastructure necessary for incorporating
> > micropayments.
>
>I'm not sure I agree. The design of an infrastructure for
>incorpoating micropayments is easy. Define the XML for the
>payment object, base 64 encode the payment, stick it in the
>X-payment: header line of the mail. Done. What is needed is
>the mail software on the desktops of tens of millions of users
>to be changed to be changed to support the system. Furthermore
>until you have it on the desktop of everyone with whom you talk
>you'll run into endless trouble.
>
>The crux of the problem is that free email services with no
>recourse for misuse are all to easy to get hold of. Unless
>you stop accepting mail from mail servers that don't limit the
>source and volume of their mail then you will always have spam.
>If HotMail were to require some sort of ID before you could get
>an account, and refuse to give a second one on the basis of the
>same ID if the first account was canceled, then you would
>quickly stop getting spam from HotMail. If you simply require
>HotMail to compute stamps on every mail that they send then I
>can't complain; they've already spent $5,000,000 with nCipher
>for crypto hardware to speed up their SSL login and I expect
>that they would do the same for the HashCash stamps.
>
>One way to ensure some sort of recourse is to require that there
>is a valid, routable reply address. The vast majority of spam
>mails do not have valid reply addresses. If you requried some
>sort of challenge-response on the first communication between
>two parties that would stop untracable spam. Furthermore such
>a system can be automated by those who care but still be made
>workable for those who don't want to upgrade their mail software.
>If you send me a mail and you don't have an automated responder
>you will simply see an authentication message with a request that
>you reply with the given subect line.
>
>Anyway, as I've said before I really don't think proof-of-work
>schemes are the solution. Even if you think that people would
>accept a ten second per recipient delay before sending their
>mail then the spammer can still send 50,000 mails a week on a
>standard machine, and they can compute over the week and splurge
>them out on some free ISP all in one go. It's not a useful
>deterant.
>
> Nicko
to which I replied (yes folks, this is the last bit)
>> > On the point about forging what class of machine as a way of getting
>> out of
>> > generating "expensive" stamps, we were not going to adjust the stamp based
>> > on the senders resources.
>>
>>I think that having one size fit all will either render prefectly
>>legitimate posting way to slow in some circumstances or make it
>>too easy for the commited spammer to produce.
>
>understood and I agree. It's just like you've pointed out that it's it's
>easy for a spammer to claim to be a low-power machine and thereby enabling
>them to get by with less postage. I'm not sure this is a mortal wound but
>it certainly bleeds heavily.
>
>> > On the point about stolen stamps, I was planning on defeating that by
>> > making hashcash be a client to client protocol and the only thing
>> > intervening machines might do is validate that the stamp is present.
>>
>>Unless you plan to rebuild the structure of the internet's email
>>system this is going to be sent in the RFC822 header. You can't
>>have challenge-response stamps for store-and-forward email.
>
>actually, you can. Think back to the days of UUCP. One model we are
>trying on for size would have both MUAs talk to each other and communicate
>certain parameters. Yes, it's potentially very slow especially for people
>that don't live on the net all the time but only check e-mail once a week.
>
>> Even
>>if you could deal with this there is no way to stop the turely nasty
>>spammer from just cracking someone else's machine and using it to
>>compute stamps for him.
>
>yup, that's a hazard and one that can be defended against. The closer one
>couples the hashcash environment to the MTA, the more difficult it becomes
>for someone to steal services to generate stamps.
>
>
>> > your thoughts are confirming one suspicion which is that even if hashcash
>> > hardware was implemented, it would raise the cost of spamming and cut out
>> > some of the more cost sensitive portions of the market. Remember that
>> each
>> > stamp can only be used once and that it's only good for a finite period of
>> > time (for example, eight days). It would make it more difficult for a
>> > spammer to deliver continual postage because in their precalculation, they
>> > would need to create stamps that would be valid in the future for a
>> limited
>> > period of time.
>>
>>I don't see this as a problem. Most people who spam buy in the mailing
>>list from somewhere. Unless they plan to sit on the list for a long
>>time (i.e. more than a week) then they could buy in the bulk stamps too.
>>I bet the address dealers will cut you a deal if you come back for a
>>second round of stamps too.
>
>let's see, let's work the numbers. Assuming a X-hashcash:string is
>somewhere in the area of 40 bytes, stamps for one million addresses is
>roughly 40 MB, 10 million stamps would be 400 MB. One could easily fit
>this on a CD or download via a DSL or cable modem. So transport would not
>be a big deal for a single Spam client but it would get rather interesting
>with thousands of spammer clients.
>
>Using your numbers, (500 times speed up), a spammer could generate one
>stamp every 0.02 seconds (assuming the average stamp computation time was
>10 seconds). This means that one million stamps would take 20,000 (5.5
>hours) seconds to generate. If we mixed in to the stamp definition a hash
>of the message body as well, then it would be more difficult (but not
>impossible) for the spammer to precompute stamps because they would have
>to have the message body before they generated stamps.
>
>one board would allow them to service roughly 130 one million address
>customers per month. servicing 1000 customers would take seven
>boards. If people wanted to ship more than one piece of spam per month,
>then the spam stamp creators would need to increase their capital
>investment and ongoing monthly costs which would in turn increase the cost
>of spam which would keep some people out of the market.
>
>This conversation is helping me understand how proof of work calculations
>fail and the rate at which they would fail. The big question is can we
>exploit the arms race in our favor? I think the answer is yes but only
>for a relatively short period of time. But that would allow us to lay the
>groundwork for peer-to-peer postage.
>
>> > This still opens the market for spammer hardware to the at home spammer
>> > where they would sell boards in addition to the list of e-mail addresses.
>>
>>Or allow you to log into their secure server and submit a list of
>>1,000,0000 addresses which would be stamped in a matter of minutes
>>for a small charge.
>
>either my math is wrong or I didn't understand just how fast the speedup
>would go. You still have the bandwidth issue when transferring stamps
>which will most certainly take more than a few minutes. At least with the
>bandwidth available to most people. ;-)
>
>> > it would be a short-term solution that would work until the hardware folks
>> > catch up. I think it's worth moving ahead with the technique anyway
>> > because it would create the infrastructure necessary for incorporating
>> > micropayments.
>>
>>I'm not sure I agree. The design of an infrastructure for
>>incorpoating micropayments is easy. Define the XML for the
>>payment object, base 64 encode the payment, stick it in the
>>X-payment: header line of the mail. Done. What is needed is
>>the mail software on the desktops of tens of millions of users
>>to be changed to be changed to support the system. Furthermore
>>until you have it on the desktop of everyone with whom you talk
>>you'll run into endless trouble.
>
>well, yes. We do need to change all desktops but we're discussing how to
>do this without necessarily replacing the clients. The current model
>favors the development of a proxy which does the hashcash
>calculation. Obviously, we do want to get this into every e-mail client
>on the face of the planet. It's not going to happen but with network
>effects, I think we can encourage enough people to make the transition
>that it will be worthwhile.
>
>One of the "encouragements" will be the delivery of messages from hashcash
>users to non hashcash users. This message (created by autoresponder) will
>instruct the user to click on a URL which will generate a hashcash coin
>and a "get out of hashcash jail free" card. The "get out of hashcash jail
>free" card will tell the recipient's MUA to release the trapped message.
>
>The reason why I keep harping on it being an important (but not essential)
>precursor to using payments is that it will create the infrastructure for
>handling payments, bounces, double spending and more importantly put in
>place a code base that will only require minor changes (in theory) to
>handle real currency instead of proof of work.
>
>as Bob will tell you, I have my own reality distortion field that has been
>in operation for far longer than I've known Bob.
>
>>Anyway, as I've said before I really don't think proof-of-work
>>schemes are the solution. Even if you think that people would
>>accept a ten second per recipient delay before sending their
>>mail then the spammer can still send 50,000 mails a week on a
>>standard machine, and they can compute over the week and splurge
>>them out on some free ISP all in one go. It's not a useful
>>deterant.
>
> 60480 stamps in a week @ ten seconds per stamp assuming the machine runs
> 24 by 7. It won't be a Windows box... ;-)
>
>The analysis we've gone over certainly indicates that this is a high
>probability. My experience with spammers from the ISP perspective tells
>me that hashcash (or something like it) will make a dent. It won't be
>perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I can live with that.
>
>again, I truly appreciate your advice and information. I will keep you
>informed so that what decisions we make in building the hashcash
>infrastructure will also be expandable to handle electronic currency when
>someone is ready to deploy it.
>
>---eric
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From residualincome4you at excite.com Sat Jun 9 12:40:51 2001
From: residualincome4you at excite.com (residualincome4you at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:40:51
Subject: MLM and Network Marketing Failures Wanted!
Message-ID: <200106100415.GAA19322@lilli.>
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From: residualincome4you at excite.com (residualincome4you at excite.com)
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From declan at well.com Sat Jun 9 09:48:09 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:48:09 -0400
Subject:
In-Reply-To: ; from sandfort@mindspring.com on Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 02:31:23PM -0700
References:
Message-ID: <20010609124809.A26560@cluebot.com>
On Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 02:31:23PM -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> more power to you. But the Cypherpunks list is about getting things done
> more than it's about cutesy vanity.
Really? It always struck me as that this list was a lot more about
vanity than getting things done. :)
-Declan
From declan at well.com Sat Jun 9 10:07:57 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 13:07:57 -0400
Subject: FC: Ashcroft tells Congress he'll take hard line on porn, piracy
Message-ID:
---
Excerpts from hearing transcript:
http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=01/06/08/2143247&mode=thread
---
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,44398,00.html
Ashcroft's Hard Line on Hardcore
By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com)
2:00 a.m. June 9, 2001 PDT
WASHINGTON -- Look out, Internet sextrepreneurs: John Aschroft wants
you to serve hard time.
In explicit terms, the attorney general told Congress this week that
hardcore sex sites would no longer be selling peeks at
balloon-breasted babes.
"I am concerned about obscenity and I'm concerned about obscenity as
it relates to our children," Ashcroft said in his first appearance
before the House Judiciary Committee.
He said Justice Department prosecutors would help state officials
imprison sex-site operators that feature obscene images: "We try to be
especially accommodating to local law enforcement to assist them, and
I would think that would be an objective of ours in this respect."
A number of Republicans asked Ashcroft to pledge to prosecute raunch
and ribaldry, but Rep. Bob Goodlatte of Virginia -- who also,
unbelievably, is co-chair of the Internet Caucus -- was the most
persistent.
"The failure of the (Clinton) administration to enforce those laws has
led to a proliferation of obscenity, both online and off," Goodlatte
said. "And I am particularly concerned about the safety of our
children on the Internet, where they're subjected to child pornography
and solicitation in a massive way."
[...]
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----- End forwarded message -----
From declan at well.com Sat Jun 9 10:15:06 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 13:15:06 -0400
Subject: Ashcroft tells Congress he'll take hard line on porn, piracy
Message-ID: <20010609131506.C26745@cluebot.com>
----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh -----
From aimee.farr at pobox.com Sat Jun 9 12:35:43 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 14:35:43 -0500
Subject: DC Cir: FTOs & due process
Message-ID:
NAT'L COUNCIL OF RESISTANCE OF IRAN v. DEP'T OF STATE
http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/dc/991438a.html#Footref2
DC Cir.: putative foreign terrorist organizations with a US presence, not
necessarily a "substantial" presence, are entitled to notice and hearing
prior to FTO designation. See also,
http://www.state.gov/www/global/terrorism/fto_info_1999.html
I seem to remember some AEDPA discussions in the archives. AEDPA provides
that all persons within or subject to US jurisdiction are forbidden from
"knowingly providing material support or resources" to designated FTOs
(among other penalties). The review process includes classified materials,
so it has been the subject of some FISA-like controversy. This case
concerned the designation of an "alter ego" FTO, and is interesting from
several angles.
...particularly this one, if you read between the lines.
>From the opinion:
=================
To oversimplify, assume the Secretary gives notice to one of the entities
that:
We are considering designating you as a foreign terrorist organization, and
in addition to classified information, we will be using the following
summarized administrative record. You have the right to come forward with
any other evidence you may have that you are not a foreign terrorist
organization.
It is not immediately apparent how the foreign policy goals of the
government in general and the Secretary in particular would be inherently
impaired by that notice. It is particular- ly difficult to discern how such
a notice could interfere with the Secretary's legitimate goals were it
presented to an entity such as the PMOI concerning its redesignation. We
recog- nize, as we have recognized before, that items of classified
information which do not appear dangerous or perhaps even important to
judges might "make all too much sense to a foreign counterintelligence
specialist who could learn much about this nation's intelligence-gathering
capabilities from what these documents revealed about sources and methods."
Yunis, 867 F.2d at 623. We extend that recognition to the possibility that
alerting a previously undesignated organiza- tion to the impending
designation as a foreign terrorist organization might work harm to this
county's foreign policy goals in ways that the court would not immediately
perceive. We therefore wish to make plain that we do not foreclose the
possibility of the Secretary, in an appropriate case, demon- strating the
necessity of withholding all notice and all oppor- tunity to present
evidence until the designation is already made. The difficulty with that in
the present case is that the Secretary has made no attempt at such a
showing.
We therefore hold that the Secretary must afford the limited due process
available to the putative foreign terrorist organization prior to the
deprivation worked by designating that entity as such with its attendant
consequences, unless he can make a showing of particularized need.
[...]
~Aimee
"For holding conversation in suspicious places, whips may be substituted for
fines. In the center of the village, an outcaste person may whip such women
five times on each of the sides of their body."
From aimee.farr at pobox.com Sat Jun 9 12:46:11 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 14:46:11 -0500
Subject: (on Young's "private language")
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
On the regulation of storytellers:
And therefore when any one of these pantomimic gentlemen, who are so
clever that they can imitate anything, comes to us, and makes a proposal to
exhibit himself and his poetry, we will fall down and worship him as a
sweet and holy and wonderful being; but we must also inform him that in our
State such as he are not permitted to exist; the law will not allow them.
And so when we have anointed him with myrrh, and set a garland of wool upon
his head, we shall send him away to another city. For we mean to employ for
our souls' health the rougher and severer poet or story-teller, who will
imitate the style of the virtuous only, and will follow those models which
we prescribed at first when we began the education of our soldiers. --
Plato's cynicism in The Republic
A passing shadow wrote, quoting S a n d y's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus:
> >Thats easy. If ones purpose is to communicate to a given audience, it is
> >the responsibility of the communicator to find the words, images
> or whatever
> >that will have meaning to most members of that audience.
Let us walk, then, and speak of the meaning of meaning:
" http://www.learn.columbia.edu/raphael/htm/raphael_philo.htm "
Raphael, The Stanza della Segnatura, The School Of Athens
Meaning is two or more objects in a relationship. As language is imperfect,
the 'disposition of the sign' is rarely a mirror image in two minds. Sandy's
argument exemplifies Wittgensteinian thought: a perfect language is one that
has TOTAL identity of reference, and all communication should have this
goal. For Sandy, anything else is "nonsensical."
Those who have the strongest power of reasoning, and who most skilfully
arrange their thoughts in order to tender them clear and intelligible, have
the best power of persuasion even if they can but speak the language of
Lower Brittany and have never learned Rhetoric. And those who have the most
delightful original ideas and who know how to express them with the maximum
of style and suavity, would not fail to be the best poets even if the art of
Poetry were unknown to them. (Descartes)
> This is not TV, Sandy. Or a public school, or politically correct
> town meeting.
Anonymous, (a fellow Sophist? FN1), points out that mass media is written
for the masses.
A larger point is that THOUGHT PRESUPPOSES LANGUAGE. By limiting your
language to the lowest common denominator, your limit the 'lodestar' of the
sign vehicles. American media speaks in the lowest common denominator in the
interest of social justice and convenience. Some feel it has worked an equal
injustice by hobbling our ability to THINK. "The limits of my language are
the limits of my mind." (Wittgenstein)
Great THOUGHT rarely speaks to the lowest common denominator. Great DIALOGUE
is not betwixt idiots.
> I, for one, enjoy JYA postings. It takes some intelligence to twist
> the tongue in the right way and also to understand the implied. It is
> fun, since thought process is revealed and much more info conveyed.
My propositions serve as elucidations in the following way: anyone who
understands me eventually recognizes them as nonsensical, when one has used
them -- as steps -- to climb up beyond them. (Wittgenstein)
> You seem to exhibit standard american "culture" conditioning that
> denigrates
> everything which is not immediately understandable by complete idiots.
Anonymous is correct when he says we are limited by our cultural language
conventions and folkways. I believe other cultures plowed richer fields of
thought.
> Even if "everyone" programs in visual basic, there is still beauty,
> style and efficiency to be done in C or assembly. And there are things
> which cannot be done in VB.
"Let the use of words teach you their meaning." (Wittgenstein) I find
Young's wordplay provoking. He buries little treasures in there
sometimes...very unique. Our language folkways limit our conceptualization,
and THE SEARCH FOR TRUTH THROUGH DIALOGUE.
Just because language invokes a personal dialogue does not mean it invalid,
or limited to an emotive conveyance. In this category fall the most powerful
*communicative* works of human existence. Poetry and prose can attain equal
footing with logical factual propositions, such as those couched in Justice
and Philosophy.
" http://www.learn.columbia.edu/raphael/htm/raphael_ceiling_details.htm "
Raphael, The Stanza della Segnatura, The Ceiling (see iconography)
> Like genital action, for example. I understand that that is your
expertise.
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." (Wittgenstein)
My apologies for taking license, but it's the Allegory of the Cave in here
sometimes....
~Aimee
1. In an Aristotelian sense.
From reeza at flex.com Sat Jun 9 17:57:06 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 14:57:06 -1000
Subject:
In-Reply-To: <000801c0f106$e1a8ae80$8e0c7bd5@z2z6a0>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609145309.00cb5da0@flex.com>
At 07:09 AM 6/9/01, John Yeomans wrote:
> Send me the instructions to make a stink bomb
> please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Follow the recipe below, consume, and wait.
Take:
4 lbs. ground beef (at least 80% lean)
3 16oz can dark red kidney beans
1 4.5oz can peeled & chopped green chilies (Old El Paso or similar)
2 8oz can tomato sauce
2 6ox can tomato paste
1 large green bell pepper
1 medium white onion
3 11oz bag white corn tortilla chips, round style (Jays or similar)
2/3 to 1 cup chili powder (*)
4 tbsp masa flour (commonly used to make tortillas & tamales,
Quaker brand or similar) (*)
2-1/2 tbsp ground oregano (*)
1-1/2 tbsp paprika
1-1/2 tbsp ground red pepper (cayenne pepper) (*)
2 tbsp minced garlic
2 to 3 tsp salt, to taste (NOT tbsp!)
NOTE 1) tbsp = tablespoon, tsp = teaspoon
NOTE 2) ingredients marked (*) are also found in popular chili mixes,
such as "Carroll Shelby's Original Texas Brand Chili Mix" or
"2 Alarm Chili Mix". If using these mixes instead of separate
ingredients, you will need two packages of mix to roughly
equal the recommended amounts.
NOTE 3) both tomato sauce and tomato paste are used in this recipe.
This is due primarily to sugar content and really does affect
the overall flavor.
+ Start heating 5 cups of water in a large pot over medium heat.
Stir in salt and tomato sauce. DO NOT ALLOW TO BOIL!
+ Mix chopped onion & bell pepper with green chilies, while stirring
in frying pan over low heat for 10 minutes. Transfer to a bowl for
later use.
+ Break up ground beef into small chunks (think of a good size for
picking up with a tortilla chip), and place in covered frying pan to
brown over medium heat. When half done, drain the grease. When done
browning, drain any remaining grease, then stir in onion/pepper
mixture from bowl.
+ While beef is browning, stir in all spices (but NOT masa flour) to
liquid in pot, mix thoroughly.
+ When beef is browned, stir tomato sauce into liquid in pot, then
add beef and stir very thoroughly.
+ Cover pot and allow to simmer over low heat for 1/2 hour, stirring
every 10 minutes.
+ Stir in masa flour, and continue to simmer another 15 minutes.
While simmering, drain liquid from beans.
+ Stir in beans, and continue to simmer another 15 minutes.
+ Serve immediately, with lots of tortilla chips for dipping (use
instead of a spoon). A dark beer will help wash it down. If you
would rather have soft drinks, Squirt or Fresca are excellent
choices and their flavor complements the spices very nicely.
From legalchallenge2001 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 9 13:33:00 2001
From: legalchallenge2001 at yahoo.com (legalchallenge2001 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 16:33:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Interesting web site
Message-ID: <200106092033.QAA11690324@www64.hway.net>
I have found a good site that proves that there indeed was a cover-up regarding
Vince Foster's death. You can visit it at http://www.fbicover-up.com or
click here (if html-mail enabled).
From John.Yeomans at btinternet.com Sat Jun 9 10:09:00 2001
From: John.Yeomans at btinternet.com (John Yeomans)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 18:09:00 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c0f106$e1a8ae80$8e0c7bd5@z2z6a0>
Send me the instructions to make a stink bomb please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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From honig at sprynet.com Sat Jun 9 19:48:04 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 19:48:04 -0700
Subject: (on Young's "private language")
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010609194804.00801750@pop.sprynet.com>
At 02:46 PM 6/9/01 -0500, Aimee Farr wrote:
>On the regulation of storytellers:
>
AF, we have only so much patience. State your point in a paragraph at
most, or don't expect to be read. I think that was SS's point. Noone
has any obligation (much less interest) to read anyone's linguistic
masturbation.
From tmcv at prison.net Sat Jun 9 19:50:54 2001
From: tmcv at prison.net (Timothy McVeigh)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 19:50:54 -0700
Subject: creationists vs. reality
Message-ID: <3B22E08D.60B2A459@prison.net>
At 08:10 AM 6/9/01 -0700, A. Melon wrote:
>Check out "F*ck the Creationists" by MC Hawking:
>http://www.mchawking.com/music.html.
>
>You can lay the funky shit on them creationists.
Why, when it only takes 4 muscles to pull a trigger, and
42 to frown?
From honig at sprynet.com Sat Jun 9 19:53:16 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 19:53:16 -0700
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010609195316.0080cdd0@pop.sprynet.com>
At 04:07 PM 6/8/01 -0700, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>I can fire 9 shots in about 4 seconds and stay in the 9 ring of a
>B-27 silhouette at 10 yards, and slow fire I can neatly remove the
>X-ring at the same distance...I don't think it would be a bad option
>against an armored opponent--2 in the body to knock them on their
Yawn. Take off your glasses, shoot with your off-hand, at pigs
in flak, then talk to me.
From nobody at dizum.com Sat Jun 9 11:31:25 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 20:31:25 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID:
> John Yeomans wrote:
>
> Send me the instructions to make a stink bomb
> please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get a male skunk and a female skunk and breed them.
Have a 'stinking' good time!
From amasonia at email.com Sat Jun 9 13:34:12 2001
From: amasonia at email.com (amasonia at email.com)
Date: 9 Jun 2001 20:34:12 -0000
Subject: Earn a $500 for in a week.
Message-ID: <20010609203412.55914.qmail@intrepid.getresponse.com>
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From scum at wineasy.se Sat Jun 9 11:42:26 2001
From: scum at wineasy.se (scum)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 20:42:26 +0200
Subject: is this test working
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010609204114.009edec0@mail.wineasy.se>
Getting zero Posts, is the roof on hospital?
Dick Laurent is a day dreamer
From boo at datashopper.dk Sat Jun 9 11:44:04 2001
From: boo at datashopper.dk (Bo Elkjaer)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 20:44:04 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: New patent: Auto-escrowable and auto-certifiable cryptosystems with fast key generation
Message-ID:
Patent 6,243,466, granted june 5. 2001.
Auto-escrowable and auto-certifiable cryptosystems with fast key
generation
Abstract
A method is provided for an escrow cryptosystem that is overhead-free,
does not require a cryptographic tamper-proof hardware implementation
(i.e., can be done in software), is publicly verifiable, and cannot be
used subliminally to enable a shadow public key system. A shadow public
key system is an unescrowed public key system that is publicly displayed
in a covert fashion. The keys generated by the method are auto-recoverable
and auto-certifiable (abbrev. ARC). The ARC Cryptosystem is based on a key
generation mechanism that outputs a public/private key pair, and a
certificate of proof that the key was generated according to the
algorithm. Each generated public/private key pair can be verified
efficiently to be escrowed properly by anyone. The verification procedure
does not use the private key. Hence, the general public has an efficient
way of making sure that any given individual's private key is escrowed
properly, and the trusted authorities will be able to access the private
key if needed. Since the verification can be performed by anyone, there is
no need for a special trusted entity, known in the art as a "trusted third
party". Furthermore, the system is designed so that its internals can be
made publicly scrutinizable (e.g., it can be distributed in source code
form). This differs from many schemes which require that the escrowing
device be tamper-proof hardware. The system has a novel feature that the
system parameters can be generated very efficiently and at the same time
provide a very high level of security. Another novel feature is a method
for making the certificates of recoverability publishable. The system is
applicable for law-enforcement, file systems, e-mail systems, certified
e-mail systems, and any scenario in which public key cryptography can be
employed and where private keys or information encrypted under public keys
need to be recoverable.
http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='6,243,466'.WKU.&OS=PN/6,243,466&RS=PN/6,243,466
--
EOT
From boo at datashopper.dk Sat Jun 9 11:44:04 2001
From: boo at datashopper.dk (Bo Elkjaer)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 20:44:04 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: New patent: Auto-escrowable and auto-certifiable cryptosystems
with fast key generation
Message-ID:
Patent 6,243,466, granted june 5. 2001.
Auto-escrowable and auto-certifiable cryptosystems with fast key
generation
Abstract
A method is provided for an escrow cryptosystem that is overhead-free,
does not require a cryptographic tamper-proof hardware implementation
(i.e., can be done in software), is publicly verifiable, and cannot be
used subliminally to enable a shadow public key system. A shadow public
key system is an unescrowed public key system that is publicly displayed
in a covert fashion. The keys generated by the method are auto-recoverable
and auto-certifiable (abbrev. ARC). The ARC Cryptosystem is based on a key
generation mechanism that outputs a public/private key pair, and a
certificate of proof that the key was generated according to the
algorithm. Each generated public/private key pair can be verified
efficiently to be escrowed properly by anyone. The verification procedure
does not use the private key. Hence, the general public has an efficient
way of making sure that any given individual's private key is escrowed
properly, and the trusted authorities will be able to access the private
key if needed. Since the verification can be performed by anyone, there is
no need for a special trusted entity, known in the art as a "trusted third
party". Furthermore, the system is designed so that its internals can be
made publicly scrutinizable (e.g., it can be distributed in source code
form). This differs from many schemes which require that the escrowing
device be tamper-proof hardware. The system has a novel feature that the
system parameters can be generated very efficiently and at the same time
provide a very high level of security. Another novel feature is a method
for making the certificates of recoverability publishable. The system is
applicable for law-enforcement, file systems, e-mail systems, certified
e-mail systems, and any scenario in which public key cryptography can be
employed and where private keys or information encrypted under public keys
need to be recoverable.
http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='6,243,466'.WKU.&OS=PN/6,243,466&RS=PN/6,243,466
--
EOT
From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jun 9 20:38:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 22:38:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FW: City Tree Rapers
In-Reply-To: <3B218077.806121C9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID:
On Fri, 8 Jun 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> Libel? Or really! And just who, pray tell, is being libeled? Let
> whoever thinks they are being libeled have at it. Politicians sue the press
> for libel? Don't be ridiculous. This is political speech and is entirely
> protect by the 1st admendment. Even someone like you has, I'm sure, heard of
Bullshit, the 1st makes no such distinction. With respect to libel, or any
other form of speech it only says it isn't a federal issue. Note that no
stipulation is put upon the states (see 10'th).
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
--
____________________________________________________________________
"...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jun 9 20:41:00 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 22:41:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: (on Young's "private language")
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010609194804.00801750@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2001, David Honig wrote:
> At 02:46 PM 6/9/01 -0500, Aimee Farr wrote:
> >On the regulation of storytellers:
> >
>
> AF, we have only so much patience. State your point in a paragraph at
> most, or don't expect to be read. I think that was SS's point. Noone
> has any obligation (much less interest) to read anyone's linguistic
> masturbation.
Drop fucking dead.
--
____________________________________________________________________
"...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jun 9 20:55:09 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 22:55:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FW: City Tree Rapers
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 CeejEngine at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 6/9/01 11:35:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> ravage at einstein.ssz.com writes:
>
>
> > Bullshit, the 1st makes no such distinction. With respect to libel, or any
> > other form of speech it only says it isn't a federal issue. Note that no
> >
>
> Yeah, but then you've got the 14th, which has been used to apply the Bill of
> Rights to the states (due process clause), so that means that no gov. can
> restrict free speech. As for libel, its damn hard to make stick- public
> figures have a hight standard, which includes proving actual malice. Fun
> times.
But the 14'th only speaks of 'priviliges and immunities' it never(!) uses
the term 'right' and a right is clearly not a privilige or immunity (read
the first two para's of the DoI for explanation of 'right').
If anything the 14'th would prevent states from making any(!) laws
respecting speech, even if we accept rights as priviliges or immunities.
--
____________________________________________________________________
"...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From k-elliott at wiu.edu Sat Jun 9 22:56:38 2001
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 22:56:38 -0700
Subject:
In-Reply-To: <000801c0f106$e1a8ae80$8e0c7bd5@z2z6a0>
References: <000801c0f106$e1a8ae80$8e0c7bd5@z2z6a0>
Message-ID:
At 18:09 +0100 on 6/9/01, John Yeomans wrote:
Send me the instructions to make a stink bomb
please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Isn't there some sort of quota on the maximum allowed number of
exclamation points in a message? Though it's worth noting that he
didn't post through toad.com so that aught to be worth some brownie
points .
--
____________________________________________________________________
volatile: Because every program deserves SOME interrupt code...
Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott
ICQ#23758827
____________________________________________________________________
From k-elliott at wiu.edu Sat Jun 9 23:00:28 2001
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:00:28 -0700
Subject: FW: City Tree Rapers
In-Reply-To: <3B218077.806121C9@ameritech.net>
References: <01E446B40445D311A3AC00805F7DC7F73C3EA5@oshkoshmis02.oshkosh
.city.wi.us> <3B218077.806121C9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID:
At 20:48 -0500 on 6/8/01, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> Libel? Or really! And just who, pray tell, is being libeled? Let
>whoever thinks they are being libeled have at it. Politicians sue the press
>for libel? Don't be ridiculous. This is political speech and is entirely
>protect by the 1st admendment. Even someone like you has, I'm sure, heard of
>the Constitution and Bill of Rights, freedom of the press and all that, eh?
> I'm sure all the readers of my website -- and they are from all over
>the US, including Alaska, and from Canada, England, New Zealand, and Australia
>-- will get quite a chuckle over your email that I'm posting on my site
>tonight.
You know, I would think in cases of alleged political corruption the
burden of proof would be on the politician not the accuser ;-)
--
____________________________________________________________________
volatile: Because every program deserves SOME interrupt code...
Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott
ICQ#23758827
____________________________________________________________________
From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jun 9 21:34:09 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:34:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FW: City Tree Rapers
In-Reply-To: <18.dc09407.285449dd@aol.com>
Message-ID:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 CeejEngine at aol.com wrote:
> Right, reading it literally. But the supreme court has interpreted the "due
> process" clause to include rights granted under the bill of rights (using the
> incorperation doctrine). I know it isn't in the 14th itself, but the way the
> court has interpreted it has given it this meaning. Look at New York v.
> Griswold (i think) for a good example of this. The court applied unreasonable
> search and siezure to a state using the 14th. The same goes for free speech.
The Bill of Rights actually grants no rights, it only limits what the
government may do with respect to defining/restricting them. See 9'th and
10'th. It in effect sets out a list of prohibitions of things that
can't/shouldn't be done. I challenge you to find a single 'assignment'
sentence in the first 10 amendments.
With respect to the laws of the states, the Constitution only(!)
stipulates that the federals must guarantee them to be representative. It
says nothing about the actual form/function so implimented.
[Image] Bill of Rights page
THE FIRST 10 AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION AS RATIFIED BY THE STATES
Note: The following text is a transcription of the first 10 amendments to
the Constitution in their original form. These amendments were ratified
December 15, 1791, and form what is known as the "Bill of Rights."
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Amendment III
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the
consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed
by law.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in
cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual
service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for
the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be
compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be
deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor
shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy
and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the
crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously
ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the
accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have
compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the
Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty
dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by
a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States,
than according to the rules of the common law.
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel
and unusual punishments inflicted.
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or
to the people.
Amendments 11-27
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: The capitalization and punctuation in this version is from the
enrolled original of the Joint Resolution of Congress proposing the Bill of
Rights, which is on permanent display in the Rotunda of the National
Archives Building, Washington, D.C.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
National Archives and Records Administration home page
URL: http://www.nara.gov/exhall/charters/billrights/billrights.html
webmaster at nara.gov
Last Modified on February 16, 2001
--
____________________________________________________________________
"...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From CeejEngine at aol.com Sat Jun 9 20:41:57 2001
From: CeejEngine at aol.com (CeejEngine at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:41:57 EDT
Subject: FW: City Tree Rapers
Message-ID:
In a message dated 6/9/01 11:35:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ravage at einstein.ssz.com writes:
> Bullshit, the 1st makes no such distinction. With respect to libel, or any
> other form of speech it only says it isn't a federal issue. Note that no
>
Yeah, but then you've got the 14th, which has been used to apply the Bill of
Rights to the states (due process clause), so that means that no gov. can
restrict free speech. As for libel, its damn hard to make stick- public
figures have a hight standard, which includes proving actual malice. Fun
times.
Ender
From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jun 9 21:42:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 23:42:37 -0500
Subject: Substantive Due Process
Message-ID: <3B22FABD.F2A21E8F@ssz.com>
The problem with the due "Process Clause" is it injects a false distinction
with respect to 'types' of rights. See the first two sentences of the DoI
for a clarification of the only operable definition of 'right' acceptable in
the American Democratic Experiment.
http://members.aol.com/abtrbng/sdp.htm
--
--
____________________________________________________________________
"...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jun 9 21:47:02 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:47:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Another point of the 14'ths "Due Process" and it's trumping...
Message-ID:
It's already trumped by a stronger requirement in the 5'th and 6'th, in
particular the 'compulsory process' clause of the 6'th. Not only are each
of us due, but government is REQUIRED to provide it under all criminal
cases involving $20 or more.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in
cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual
service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for
the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be
compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be
deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor
shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy
and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the
crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously
ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the
accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have
compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the
Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
--
____________________________________________________________________
"...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From CeejEngine at aol.com Sat Jun 9 20:56:13 2001
From: CeejEngine at aol.com (CeejEngine at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:56:13 EDT
Subject: FW: City Tree Rapers
Message-ID: <18.dc09407.285449dd@aol.com>
In a message dated 6/9/01 11:53:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ravage at einstein.ssz.com writes:
> > In a message dated 6/9/01 11:35:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > ravage at einstein.ssz.com writes:
> >
> >
> > > Bullshit, the 1st makes no such distinction. With respect to libel, or
> any
> > > other form of speech it only says it isn't a federal issue. Note that no
> > >
> >
> > Yeah, but then you've got the 14th, which has been used to apply the Bill
> of
> > Rights to the states (due process clause), so that means that no gov. can
> > restrict free speech. As for libel, its damn hard to make stick- public
> > figures have a hight standard, which includes proving actual malice. Fun
> > times.
>
> But the 14'th only speaks of 'priviliges and immunities' it never(!) uses
> the term 'right' and a right is clearly not a privilige or immunity (read
> the first two para's of the DoI for explanation of 'right').
>
> If anything the 14'th would prevent states from making any(!) laws
>
Right, reading it literally. But the supreme court has interpreted the "due
process" clause to include rights granted under the bill of rights (using the
incorperation doctrine). I know it isn't in the 14th itself, but the way the
court has interpreted it has given it this meaning. Look at New York v.
Griswold (i think) for a good example of this. The court applied unreasonable
search and siezure to a state using the 14th. The same goes for free speech.
Ender
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jun 9 22:13:00 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 00:13:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FW: City Tree Rapers
In-Reply-To: <7a.1620bcb0.285455d5@aol.com>
Message-ID:
On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 CeejEngine at aol.com wrote:
> Sorry, poor choice of language on my part. True, the bill of rights doesn't
> actually *assign* rights- it prohibits the federal government from making any
> laws that restrict them.
...or defining what is or isn't. It isn't the federals business to manage
the individual. It is their business to manage interstate commerce (of
both type), make sure all state governments are 'representative' (if that
doesn't bring the fed's into it nothing else will, how can a state
government be representative if some faction can't speak or they aren't
getting fair legal protection? Interstate commerce, second definition) and
handle foreign interests.
> Reading from amendments 1-10, and the othe articles
> of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to the states- and this
> was legal fact until the passage of the 14th amendment.
Perhaps, but it's incorrect interpretation. For example the 5th and 6th
say 'criminal' not 'federal' or 'state' (there is no specification as in
the 1st as to who can't do it).
To even quible over it is a fundamental abandonment of American Democratic
thought. Consider that one of the fundamental thoughts of 'American
Democratic' theory is 'equal protection under the law'. Consider why this
country revolted from Britian, unequal protection under the law.
American thought is fundamentaly about 'if it ain't prohibited it's
permitted' and 'it can't be prohibited unless it can be shown to harm
anothers expression of rights (ie life, liberty, & pursuit of happiness)'.
It isn't about 'you can only do what is listed'. That's why we have a list
of things which are meant to not be listed ever(!).
I love current popular American political thought:
"The only way to protect Democracy is to give it up."
And the trains still won't run on time...
--
____________________________________________________________________
"...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Jun 9 22:14:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 00:14:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Substantive Due Process
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 CeejEngine at aol.com wrote:
> I'm going to have to admit that I've pretty much lost the thread of the
> argument here- I'm just trying to point out that under the incorperation
> doctrine, the 14th amendment has been used to expand the bill of rights to
> apply to the states.
The problem is they draw a distinction in 'rights', procedural and
substative. When in fact they are the sides of the same coin. You can't
have one without the other.
--
____________________________________________________________________
"...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From info at homerjoe.net Sat Jun 9 22:23:34 2001
From: info at homerjoe.net (Founder)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 00:23:34 -0500
Subject: - 3 steps to WEALTH!!!!!
Message-ID: <200106100523.AAA10459@einstein.ssz.com>
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From CeejEngine at aol.com Sat Jun 9 21:47:17 2001
From: CeejEngine at aol.com (CeejEngine at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 00:47:17 EDT
Subject: FW: City Tree Rapers
Message-ID: <7a.1620bcb0.285455d5@aol.com>
In a message dated 6/10/01 12:33:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ravage at einstein.ssz.com writes:
> The Bill of Rights actlly grants no rights, it only limits what the
> government may do with respect to defining/restricting them. See 9'th and
> 10'th. It in effect sets out a list of prohibitions of things that
> can't/shouldn't be done. I challenge you to uafind a single 'assignment'
> sentence in the first 10 amendments.
>
> With respect to the laws of the states, the Constitution only(!)
> stipulates that the federals must guarantee them to be representative. It
>
Sorry, poor choice of language on my part. True, the bill of rights doesn't
actually *assign* rights- it prohibits the federal government from making any
laws that restrict them. Reading from amendments 1-10, and the othe articles
of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to the states- and this
was legal fact until the passage of the 14th amendment. But that 14th stated
that (paraphrasing here) "no state may deny a citizen due process of law".
The Supreme Court interpreted this (in effect, adding foot notes to the
constitution) to mean that the Bill of Rights now applied to the states. I
know that nowhere in the Constitution does it say that "states must honour
the bill of rights". But look in Supreme Court decisions (which, legally, are
pretty much an extension of the constitution). There, it is *clearly* stated
that the Bill of Right's restrictions of the federal government's powers
applies to the states as well. So when you say that the Constitution only
says that states laws must be representative, you are ignoring the 14th
amendment, and what it does to the relationthip between state governments and
their citizens. But yeah, that's all I'm trying to say. Enough is enough.
Ender
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From CeejEngine at aol.com Sat Jun 9 21:54:16 2001
From: CeejEngine at aol.com (CeejEngine at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 00:54:16 EDT
Subject: Substantive Due Process
Message-ID:
The problem with the due "Process Clause" is it injects a false distinction
with respect to 'types' of rights. See the first two sentences of the DoI
for a clarification of the only operable definition of 'right' acceptable in
I'm going to have to admit that I've pretty much lost the thread of the
argument here- I'm just trying to point out that under the incorperation
doctrine, the 14th amendment has been used to expand the bill of rights to
apply to the states. No, the constitution doesn't explicitly state this. But
the supreme court says that it is part of the constitution, which pretty much
makes it so (yes, there are some important legal distinctions between court
opinions and the Constitution itself, but for the most part, they function as
the same thing, with the opinions footnoting the Constitution).
Ender
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From aimee.farr at pobox.com Sun Jun 10 00:02:11 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 02:02:11 -0500
Subject: (on Young's "private language")
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010609194804.00801750@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID:
Honig wrote:
> AF, we have only so much patience. State your point in a paragraph at
> most, or don't expect to be read. I think that was SS's point. Noone
> has any obligation (much less interest) to read anyone's linguistic
> masturbation.
Yes, David, truly, I expected (to paraphrase Sandfort) "the most members of
this audience" to be drawn in by Plato's Republic, so as to entertain the
nature of Sophist dialogue ...reflect on Wittgensteinian philosophy
...engage in concept analysis ...to sit and marvel on the colored numenons
of Raphael ...to meander down linguistic folkways.... Yea, to even come away
pondering The Allegory of the Cave....
Damn.
~Aimee
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From: opt-in10 at alloymail.com (opt-in10 at alloymail.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 02:10:50 -0300
Subject: Excellent Work from Home Opportunity
Message-ID: <200106100510.f5A5Anw17206@mail.tjm.sp.gov.br>
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***************************************************************
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From juicy at melontraffickers.com Sun Jun 10 07:56:08 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 07:56:08 -0700
Subject: creationists vs. reality
Message-ID:
Because it's kind of hard to keep focused on the front sight when you're
laughing at a rap song explaining thermodynamics sung by Stephen Hawking.
Timothy McVeigh wrote:
>At 08:10 AM 6/9/01 -0700, A. Melon wrote:
>>Check out "F*ck the Creationists" by MC Hawking:
>>http://www.mchawking.com/music.html.
>>
>>You can lay the funky shit on them creationists.
>
>Why, when it only takes 4 muscles to pull a trigger, and
>42 to frown?
From honig at sprynet.com Sun Jun 10 08:26:48 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 08:26:48 -0700
Subject: (on Young's "private language")
In-Reply-To:
References: <3.0.6.32.20010609194804.00801750@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010610082648.00806820@pop.sprynet.com>
At 10:41 PM 6/9/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Sat, 9 Jun 2001, David Honig wrote:
>
>> At 02:46 PM 6/9/01 -0500, Aimee Farr wrote:
>> >On the regulation of storytellers:
>> >
>>
>> AF, we have only so much patience. State your point in a paragraph at
>> most, or don't expect to be read. I think that was SS's point. Noone
>> has any obligation (much less interest) to read anyone's linguistic
>> masturbation.
>
>Drop fucking dead.
>
Well at least you're concise.
From exporta012001 at yahoo.ca Sun Jun 10 09:17:10 2001
From: exporta012001 at yahoo.ca (Dawn)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 09:17:10
Subject: Freedom
Message-ID: <200106101812.f5AIClB28419@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Friends and Family--- Hi everyone, this is Dawn!!! Well you guys really
need to read on about this awesome way you can make tons of money, I'm
already doing it, and I'm really excited knowing that I am going to get lots
of money in the mail. Just read this e-mail all the way through, and you'll
completely understand what you need to do. If you don't understand then
E-mail me and I'll explain it to you better. When you're mailing the letters
and it has to go to Canada you have to put a 60 cent postage on it.
But this a great way to make lots of money. Well just read on, and you'll
all see what I'm talking about. Thanks!!!
Subject: Real Money
Dear Friends & Future Millionaires:
AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:
Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for
an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time
THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET !
> > > > >==================================================
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!!
Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of
this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently
devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below,
to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated
whether or not the program was legal.
Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely
NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people
can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with
only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF
POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED,
IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER.
This is what one had to say. ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity.
I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am
so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return
for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received
total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in."
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.
> > > > >===================================================
Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a
long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this
again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple
instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in.
First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I
made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering
the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again.
The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT
change anything.'' More testimonials later but first,
> > > > >===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ======
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months
easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL
DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS:
> > > >=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====
For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT
YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose
name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN
ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail
problems.
=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer
and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00.
Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from
these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be
accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them
from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk
in case something happens to your computer.
IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next
to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority
of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see
how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been
tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their
friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But
it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and
then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is
instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you.
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!!
1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person
has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune.
2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.
3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.
4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.
5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2
6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE
MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY!
> > > > >==========================================================
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your
computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.
Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist
you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase
will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to
send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and
much more.
There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going:
METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
> > > > >==========================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will
assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's
also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response
could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people
will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each).
Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2%
response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded
by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000
e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and
ordered Report # 2
Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails.
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3.
Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails
sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report #4.
Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5
THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million).
Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4
$50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00
NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGUREOUT
THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU
CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY !
> > > > >=========================================================
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO.
Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even
one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are
over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me,
many people will do just that, and more!
METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
> > > > >=======================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds
of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method #1
and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you
must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide
same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out,
with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they
receive the report.
> > > > >=========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================
ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes:
Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT
accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets
of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME
of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name
and postal address.
PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :
> > > > >====================================================
REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net"
Order Report #1 from:
D.S. White
Box 2228 - 246 Steward Green S.W.
Calgary, Alberta T3H 3C8
___________________________________________________________
REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net"
Order Report # 2 from:
Dan Wetzel
PO Box 715
McNaughton, WI 54543, USA
____________________________________________________________
REPORT # 3: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net"
Order Report # 3 from :
Dusty
PO Box 60204
Palm Bay, FL 32906-0204, USA
> > > > >__________________________________________________________
REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net"
Order Report # 4 from:
S and D Marketing
PO Box 8365
LA Crescenta, CA 91224, USA
___________________________________________________________
REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free"
Order Report # 5 from:
MLD
1816 S. 312th
Federal Way WA 98003, USA
___________________________________________________________
> > > > >$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$
Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:
=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.
=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you
should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not,
continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do.
=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU
CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the
cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front
of a Different report.
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report
people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE
INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START
THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN.
There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!!
======================================================
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS
PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you
financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST
A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next
few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program
EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works
exceedingly well as it is now.
Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put
your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2....#5
as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out
100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them.
Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers
you will reach.
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!
> > > > >============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================
"My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an
accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money.
When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk
mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored
my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet.
I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on
her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks
she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received
total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody
in her ''hobby''.
Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois
> > > > >======================================================
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that
the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I
wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was
surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with
orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about
this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply
isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big."
Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada
> > > > >=======================================================
'I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered
if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact
to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone
else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not
delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the
money came within 22 weeks."
Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y.
> > > >=======================================================
''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with
little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and
within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made
$20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was
$362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet.".
Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand
> > > > >=======================================================
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON
'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !
> > > > >=======================================================
> > > > >
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.
(Note: To avoid delays make sure appropriate postage to Canada is applied
if mailing from the US)
> > > >-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=Remove Instructions=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
**************************************************************
Do not reply to this message -
To be removed from future mailings:
mail to:housetips at hotmail.com?Subject=Remove
From exporta012001 at yahoo.ca Sun Jun 10 09:17:31 2001
From: exporta012001 at yahoo.ca (Dawn)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 09:17:31
Subject: Freedom
Message-ID: <200106101514.IAA12319@ecotone.toad.com>
Friends and Family--- Hi everyone, this is Dawn!!! Well you guys really
need to read on about this awesome way you can make tons of money, I'm
already doing it, and I'm really excited knowing that I am going to get lots
of money in the mail. Just read this e-mail all the way through, and you'll
completely understand what you need to do. If you don't understand then
E-mail me and I'll explain it to you better. When you're mailing the letters
and it has to go to Canada you have to put a 60 cent postage on it.
But this a great way to make lots of money. Well just read on, and you'll
all see what I'm talking about. Thanks!!!
Subject: Real Money
Dear Friends & Future Millionaires:
AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:
Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for
an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time
THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET !
> > > > >==================================================
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!!
Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you
have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of
this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently
devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below,
to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated
whether or not the program was legal.
Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely
NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people
can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with
only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF
POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED,
IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER.
This is what one had to say. ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity.
I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am
so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return
for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received
total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in."
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.
> > > > >===================================================
Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a
long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this
again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple
instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in.
First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I
made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering
the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again.
The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT
change anything.'' More testimonials later but first,
> > > > >===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ======
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months
easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL
DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS:
> > > >=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====
For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT
YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose
name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN
ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail
problems.
=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer
and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00.
Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from
these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be
accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them
from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk
in case something happens to your computer.
IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next
to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is
instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority
of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see
how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been
tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their
friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But
it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and
then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is
instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you.
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!!
1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and
REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person
has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune.
2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.
3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.
4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.
5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2
6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE
MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY!
> > > > >==========================================================
**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your
computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.
Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist
you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase
will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to
send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and
much more.
There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going:
METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
> > > > >==========================================================
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will
assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's
also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response
could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people
will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each).
Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2%
response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded
by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000
e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and
ordered Report # 2
Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails.
The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3.
Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails
sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report #4.
Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000
(50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5
THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million).
Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4
$50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00
NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGUREOUT
THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU
CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY !
> > > > >=========================================================
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO.
Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even
one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are
over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me,
many people will do just that, and more!
METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
> > > > >=======================================================
Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds
of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will
easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method #1
and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you
must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide
same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out,
with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they
receive the report.
> > > > >=========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================
ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes:
Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT
accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets
of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME
of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name
and postal address.
PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :
> > > > >====================================================
REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net"
Order Report #1 from:
D.S. White
Box 2228 - 246 Steward Green S.W.
Calgary, Alberta T3H 3C8
___________________________________________________________
REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net"
Order Report # 2 from:
Dan Wetzel
PO Box 715
McNaughton, WI 54543, USA
____________________________________________________________
REPORT # 3: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net"
Order Report # 3 from :
Dusty
PO Box 60204
Palm Bay, FL 32906-0204, USA
> > > > >__________________________________________________________
REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net"
Order Report # 4 from:
S and D Marketing
PO Box 8365
LA Crescenta, CA 91224, USA
___________________________________________________________
REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free"
Order Report # 5 from:
MLD
1816 S. 312th
Federal Way WA 98003, USA
___________________________________________________________
> > > > >$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$
Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:
=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2
weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.
=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you
should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not,
continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do.
=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU
CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the
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======================================================
FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS
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> > > > >============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================
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> > > > >======================================================
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> > > > >=======================================================
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> > > >=======================================================
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> > > > >=======================================================
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON
'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !
> > > > >=======================================================
> > > > >
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.
(Note: To avoid delays make sure appropriate postage to Canada is applied
if mailing from the US)
> > > >-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=Remove Instructions=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
**************************************************************
Do not reply to this message -
To be removed from future mailings:
mail to:housetips at hotmail.com?Subject=Remove
From support at 4freeteen.com Sun Jun 10 06:33:10 2001
From: support at 4freeteen.com (support at 4freeteen.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 09:33:10 -0400
Subject: Confirmation required for regsitration at 4 Free Teen
Message-ID: <200106101333.JAA04906@nat71.national-net.com>
Thank you !!!
You or someone you know has submitted your email address to 4 Free Teen
Username: cypherpunks
Password: This will be E-MAILED to you once you complete the following 2 steps....
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Please do not hesitate to send questions to support at 4freeteen.com
From declan at well.com Sun Jun 10 07:01:57 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:01:57 -0400
Subject: The Credentialling of America
In-Reply-To: <20010608055917.55314.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>; from morlockelloi@yahoo.com on Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 10:59:17PM -0700
References: <20010608055917.55314.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010610100157.C28943@cluebot.com>
I have never programmed in VB, though I have written machine code.
Nowadays I do my work in Perl with some C and am quite happy.
That said, I suspect you can craft some useful programs in VB, and if it
speeds development time without greatly influencing running time, why not
do it? I'm too cranky to get religious about these things any more.
-Declan
On Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 10:59:17PM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> >And to never write the way poets do, oddballs do, gibbering
> >idiots do, for that will allegedly diminish the value of your
> >writing the way the payers want you to write, that is to
>
> The language is extremely powerful. Many do not realise that, so, to follow
> anon's analogy, VB-heads keep on droning correctly, and cannot even think
> outside microsoft-sponsored visual basic. For them it is the blessed and only
> way for their fucked audience to "understand" (and compiler to compile).
>
> They look down to snippets of machine code, which they cannot write, because
> for them the writing is equal to scripting microsoft's interpreter. I bet that
> many deny the very existance of assembly programs.
>
> But machine instructions can be really dangerous, they can fuck up the brain
> with new associations and synapses, and do things which VB-ers cannot dream of,
> literally.
>
> For writing VB-shit by pathetic "wordsmiths" is not really writing at all. It
> is just symbolic xeroxing of master's 5 commandments in 17 prescribed shades.
> Nothing can be said in VB, really.
From declan at well.com Sun Jun 10 07:04:14 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:04:14 -0400
Subject:
In-Reply-To: <3B234DEE.4D2C44CD@lrz.uni-muenchen.de>; from Eugene.Leitl@lrz.uni-muenchen.de on Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 12:37:34PM +0200
References: <20010609124809.A26560@cluebot.com> <3B234DEE.4D2C44CD@lrz.uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <20010610100414.D28943@cluebot.com>
PRZ told me last week he was working on (and I put this in my Wired article)
PGPfone in Java. You may want to compare notes.
-Declan
On Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 12:37:34PM +0200, Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de wrote:
> Apropos, I'm looking for full-duplex no-hassle crypto
> voice programs (preferably, for *nix) which would work
> on anything >200 MHz StrongARM and over wireless modem
> links. (It's in a wearable context).
>
> Apart from SpeakFreely (I'm not sure it's full duplex),
> any pointers?
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
> 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3
From declan at well.com Sun Jun 10 07:08:58 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:08:58 -0400
Subject: unsu-s-r-b- Funkymonkey323@cs.com
In-Reply-To: <67.152eb463.28527f41@cs.com>; from Funkymonkey323@cs.com on Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:19:29PM -0400
References: <67.152eb463.28527f41@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20010610100857.E28943@cluebot.com>
Any chance of adding "uns-b-c-i-e" in the Subject: or body to majordomo's
verboten-words list?
-Declan
On Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:19:29PM -0400, Funkymonkey323 at cs.com wrote:
> please uns--e me
From honig at sprynet.com Sun Jun 10 10:15:33 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:15:33 -0700
Subject: The Credentialling of America
In-Reply-To: <3B239896.BB81989@ACM.Org>
References: <20010608055917.55314.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>
<20010610100157.C28943@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010610101533.0080c290@pop.sprynet.com>
At 11:56 AM 6/10/01 -0400, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
>of types available is included. IOW the classic
>fight between programmers and software engineers
>goes on.
Conjugate:
I architect systems
You engineer software
They program
From measl at mfn.org Sun Jun 10 08:42:03 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:42:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Another point of the 14'ths "Due Process" and it's trumping...
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> It's already trumped by a stronger requirement in the 5'th and 6'th, in
> particular the 'compulsory process' clause of the 6'th. Not only are each
> of us due, but government is REQUIRED to provide it under all criminal
> cases involving $20 or more.
Yeah. Go tell that to Jim Bell.
--
Yours,
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org
If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From announce at lga2.nytimes.com Sun Jun 10 08:01:47 2001
From: announce at lga2.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:01:47 -0400
Subject: Find more of what's inside NYTimes.com
Message-ID: <200106101758.f5AHwoB27945@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Dear NYTimes.com Member,
Thanks again for joining our community. This is the second
(and last) e-mail introducing you to the features of our
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From PaulMerrill at acm.org Sun Jun 10 08:56:06 2001
From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:56:06 -0400
Subject: The Credentialling of America
References: <20010608055917.55314.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> <20010610100157.C28943@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3B239896.BB81989@ACM.Org>
Development time is minor compared with the
remainder of the life cycle. While hacking for
personal use, the joys of assembler are sufficient
for a limited number of users on a single machine
(or at least machine type) but totally
insufficient (read full rewrite) when the spread
of types available is included. IOW the classic
fight between programmers and software engineers
goes on.
PHM
Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> I have never programmed in VB, though I have written machine code.
> Nowadays I do my work in Perl with some C and am quite happy.
>
> That said, I suspect you can craft some useful programs in VB, and if it
> speeds development time without greatly influencing running time, why not
> do it? I'm too cranky to get religious about these things any more.
>
> -Declan
>
> On Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 10:59:17PM -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> > >And to never write the way poets do, oddballs do, gibbering
> > >idiots do, for that will allegedly diminish the value of your
> > >writing the way the payers want you to write, that is to
> >
> > The language is extremely powerful. Many do not realise that, so, to follow
> > anon's analogy, VB-heads keep on droning correctly, and cannot even think
> > outside microsoft-sponsored visual basic. For them it is the blessed and only
> > way for their fucked audience to "understand" (and compiler to compile).
> >
> > They look down to snippets of machine code, which they cannot write, because
> > for them the writing is equal to scripting microsoft's interpreter. I bet that
> > many deny the very existance of assembly programs.
> >
> > But machine instructions can be really dangerous, they can fuck up the brain
> > with new associations and synapses, and do things which VB-ers cannot dream of,
> > literally.
> >
> > For writing VB-shit by pathetic "wordsmiths" is not really writing at all. It
> > is just symbolic xeroxing of master's 5 commandments in 17 prescribed shades.
> > Nothing can be said in VB, really.
--
Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP
PaulMerrill at ACM.Org
From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sun Jun 10 03:37:34 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:37:34 +0200
Subject:
References:
<20010609124809.A26560@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <3B234DEE.4D2C44CD@lrz.uni-muenchen.de>
Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> Really? It always struck me as that this list was a lot more about
> vanity than getting things done. :)
Apropos, I'm looking for full-duplex no-hassle crypto
voice programs (preferably, for *nix) which would work
on anything >200 MHz StrongARM and over wireless modem
links. (It's in a wearable context).
Apart from SpeakFreely (I'm not sure it's full duplex),
any pointers?
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3
From declan at well.com Sun Jun 10 10:27:37 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:27:37 -0400
Subject: "This Is Your Brain On Cow"
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010610132418.00ab7d20@mail.well.com>
http://www.madcowculture.com/madcow-00073.html
Not surprisingly, the mad cow scare has gone underground and spawned a fan
club that professes to live on the edge. Club members usually wear black,
go to all-night clubs in Greenwich Village, and demonstrate courage by
doing a line of cocaine. The new fad is a line of spine that involves
inhaling through the nostrils a line of pulverized, powdered spine
ostensibly from a really mad-cow cow. So pervasive is this practice that
New York health officials have launched a television campaign called "This
Is Your Brain On Cow," showing hapless young men and women braying at the moon.
In a less dramatic manner some restaurants are simply adding a note of
intrigue to expensive, bland menus. For example in Japan blowfish is
considered a delicacy. However, it must be cooked properly or the consumer
could die a very painful death.
A similar practice is currently the rage in England where enterprising,
risk-taking upper-class families actually seek out suspect meat for the
Sunday roast claiming their pedigree will protect them.
From PaulMerrill at acm.org Sun Jun 10 10:33:57 2001
From: PaulMerrill at acm.org (Paul H. Merrill)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:33:57 -0400
Subject: The Credentialling of America
References: <20010608055917.55314.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>
<20010610100157.C28943@cluebot.com> <3.0.6.32.20010610101533.0080c290@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3B23AF85.5A193D11@ACM.Org>
Ever so true -- but now that I work at the system
level rather than the code level I greatly prefer
You to They. Makes my life ever so much better.
PHM
David Honig wrote:
>
> At 11:56 AM 6/10/01 -0400, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> >of types available is included. IOW the classic
> >fight between programmers and software engineers
> >goes on.
>
> Conjugate:
> I architect systems
> You engineer software
> They program
>
>
>
>
--
Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP
PaulMerrill at ACM.Org
From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Sun Jun 10 11:09:42 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:09:42 -0400
Subject: "This Is Your Brain On Cow"
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010610132418.00ab7d20@mail.well.com>; from declan@well.com on Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 01:27:37PM -0400
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010610132418.00ab7d20@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <20010610140941.A212@ils.unc.edu>
Aha, yes. Being a vegan, I don't need to worry about such things. I
demonstrate my courage by snorting a line of caffeine, followed by
some guacamole.
If I'm feeling up to pushing the edge, I may use non-organically
grown avocados.
BTW, the "This Is Your Brain on Cow" ads, which I saw while in NYC
recently, are done by McDonalds' advertising agency. Evidently, the
real fear (but maybe this is just conspiracy theory) is that mad cow
will become so popular that McDonalds will suffer lost revenues.
This is because there are strict US FDA regulations concerning the use
of infected beef in restaraunts, but they have little to say about
what individuals in private homes eat.
-- Greg
PS: I hear that the Japan story is a hoax, as infected beef is
almost impossible to get there. People pay money for the thrill,
but are really just getting marinated chicken.
On Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 01:27:37PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>
> http://www.madcowculture.com/madcow-00073.html
>
> Not surprisingly, the mad cow scare has gone underground and spawned a fan
> club that professes to live on the edge. Club members usually wear black,
> go to all-night clubs in Greenwich Village, and demonstrate courage by
> doing a line of cocaine. The new fad is a line of spine that involves
> inhaling through the nostrils a line of pulverized, powdered spine
> ostensibly from a really mad-cow cow. So pervasive is this practice that
> New York health officials have launched a television campaign called "This
> Is Your Brain On Cow," showing hapless young men and women braying at the moon.
>
> In a less dramatic manner some restaurants are simply adding a note of
> intrigue to expensive, bland menus. For example in Japan blowfish is
> considered a delicacy. However, it must be cooked properly or the consumer
> could die a very painful death.
>
> A similar practice is currently the rage in England where enterprising,
> risk-taking upper-class families actually seek out suspect meat for the
> Sunday roast claiming their pedigree will protect them.
From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jun 10 13:23:33 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:23:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Another point of the 14'ths "Due Process" and it's trumping...
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Jun 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
>
> > It's already trumped by a stronger requirement in the 5'th and 6'th, in
> > particular the 'compulsory process' clause of the 6'th. Not only are each
> > of us due, but government is REQUIRED to provide it under all criminal
> > cases involving $20 or more.
>
> Yeah. Go tell that to Jim Bell.
What should be and what is are seldom the same, granted. Of course, that's
one of the reasons this list exists, to bring them together (at least
metaphoricaly).
--
____________________________________________________________________
"...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From ravage at ssz.com Sun Jun 10 13:28:19 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:28:19 -0500
Subject: OPT: Slashdot | Law Review Article Says Port Scanning Illegal
Message-ID: <3B23D863.6DCC2EAE@ssz.com>
http://slashdot.org/articles/01/06/10/209201.shtml
--
--
____________________________________________________________________
"...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From Lisa.outbox at btinternet.com Sun Jun 10 07:30:25 2001
From: Lisa.outbox at btinternet.com (Lisa Belcher)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:30:25 +0100
Subject: CREATE YOUR OWN HOME BUSINESS
Message-ID: <220192001601014302560@btinternet.com>
How would you like to make £400 - £2,000 per month?
No start up money required. We'll train you. It's fun, easy and only takes
a few hours a day (set your own schedule). Fully legal and you'll help
people enrich their lives. If you have a computer and Internet access then
you're ready to
start.
Contact Lisa at Prosperity.Mail at btinternet.com. Subject: "Show me".
From dog3 at charc.net Sun Jun 10 12:32:59 2001
From: dog3 at charc.net (cubic-dog)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:32:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010609195316.0080cdd0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2001, David Honig wrote:
> At 04:07 PM 6/8/01 -0700, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >Hash: SHA1
> >
> >I can fire 9 shots in about 4 seconds and stay in the 9 ring of a
> >B-27 silhouette at 10 yards, and slow fire I can neatly remove the
> >X-ring at the same distance...I don't think it would be a bad option
> >against an armored opponent--2 in the body to knock them on their
>
> Yawn. Take off your glasses, shoot with your off-hand, at pigs
> in flak, then talk to me.
I'ma M1911 man myself. I have fired this weapon in question
and found it quite agreeable. I was pretty amazed. I thought
they were just toys for rich kids.
However, if you need a rifle, take a rifle.
For the bulk of that thing, might was well carry
a carbine.
From petro at bounty.org Sun Jun 10 16:50:11 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:50:11 -0700
Subject:
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
>the Cypherpunks list--a long way from "complete idiots." I relish
Some would question that.
--
--
http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html
It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so
afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such
knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense.
From petro at bounty.org Sun Jun 10 16:56:28 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:56:28 -0700
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010607204253.007f6b70@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20010607204253.007f6b70@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID:
>At 11:53 AM 6/7/01 -0700, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>Hash: SHA1
>>
>>They used I.M.I. Desert Eagles chambered for .50 Action Express. I
>>have one in .44 Magnum, made in Israel, imported by Magnum Research,
>>Inc.
>
>Those are typical Hollywood guns, largely impractical. Cool looking,
>certainly.
>
>Now a Barrett in .50...
Is used as cool looking, and just as impractical for anything
other than infrastructure hits.
A .300 Win Mag or .338 Laupa will do 1000 to 1500 yard hits
just as well, in a smaller, cheaper, easier to handle package.
Anything past 800 to 1000 yards is luck and voodoo anyway.
--
--
http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html
It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so
afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such
knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense.
From petro at bounty.org Sun Jun 10 17:11:01 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:11:01 -0700
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
References: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
Message-ID:
First of all, turn off your stinking HTML.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
I can fire 9 shots in about 4 seconds and stay in the 9 ring of a
B-27 silhouette at 10 yards, and slow fire I can neatly remove the
X-ring at the same distance...I don't think it would be a bad option
against an armored opponent--2 in the body to knock them on their
behind, then one more between the eyes to finish things. The only
Secondly, if you think *ANY* firearm you can fire standing up
will "Knock them on their behind", take a high school physics class.
Short version: For every action there is an equal and
opposite reaction.
Shorter version: Not going to happen with a cartridge pistol.
Try doing it in the dark, engaging multiple opponents and
holding a flashlight.
The only good use for a pistol is to fight your way to a rifle.
--
--
http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html
It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so
afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such
knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense.
From reeza at flex.com Sun Jun 10 20:14:38 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:14:38 -1000
Subject: "This Is Your Brain On Cow"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010610185938.00808720@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <20010610140941.A212@ils.unc.edu>
<5.0.2.1.0.20010610132418.00ab7d20@mail.well.com>
<5.0.2.1.0.20010610132418.00ab7d20@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610171229.02edaec0@flex.com>
At 03:59 PM 6/10/01, David Honig wrote:
>At 02:09 PM 6/10/01 -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
>>This is because there are strict US FDA regulations concerning the use
>>of infected beef in restaraunts, but they have little to say about
>>what individuals in private homes eat.
>>
>
>Indeed there's been a few cases of something like BSE in Americans
>who've eaten elk and / or deer. But since the infected aren't fed
>back into the population, there's no way for it to spread. (E.g.,
>if it arises spontaneously now and then.)
I'm on the Pro-Med list and if there were any positive link between
eating BSE-infected deer or elk, they'd be talking about it there.
They aren't. Currently, there is only a recommendation that hunters
not eat brains or spinal cords.
What is it you know or think you know, that they do not?
Reese
From reeza at flex.com Sun Jun 10 20:16:01 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:16:01 -1000
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010610192622.00812360@pop.sprynet.com>
References:
<3.0.6.32.20010607204253.007f6b70@pop.sprynet.com>
<3.0.6.32.20010607204253.007f6b70@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610171500.02eb9e60@flex.com>
At 04:26 PM 6/10/01, David Honig wrote:
>At 04:56 PM 6/10/01 -0700, petro wrote:
>>
>> A .300 Win Mag or .338 Laupa will do 1000 to 1500 yard hits
>>just as well, in a smaller, cheaper, easier to handle package.
>
>In unknown wind? Ok.
>
>> Anything past 800 to 1000 yards is luck and voodoo anyway.
>
>Not me, but others, could contradict this by example.
Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock had a confirmed kill with a Ma Deuce
after mounting a scope atop it - 2500 yards.
Reese
From petro at bounty.org Sun Jun 10 17:17:34 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:17:34 -0700
Subject: Ian Grigg's Crypto Fiction Choices
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
>From: Matthew Gaylor
>Subject: Ian Grigg's Crypto Fiction Choices
>Cc: iang at systemics.com
>
>http://www.iang.org/crypto_fiction/
>A Fire Upon The Deep
>
>I think Vernor Vinge would have to be my favourite science fiction
>author, just pipping out Stephenson. A Fire Upon The Deep is a tour
>de force of 90's science fiction.
>
>It actually has very little crypto in it, so it is hard for me to
>award it more than 3 bits of entropy. The main players ship out of a
>port with a third part of a one time pad. The other two parts ship
>via other means - a security precaution.
>
>The one time slice never makes it to its destination, but is used
>later in a last ditch effort to establish comms with the good guys,
>whilst being chased by the bad guys across the universe.
>
>This is not a funny book, but Vinge's humour comes through with a
>single crypto joke which still makes me laugh. To enjoy the joke,
>you'll have to buy the book.
You missed "A Deepness in the Sky", written by Vinge, and
published in 1999. Crypto plays an important part of the story, and,
well, it's Vinge, it's worth a read.
--
--
http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html
It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so
afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such
knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense.
From petro at bounty.org Sun Jun 10 17:29:07 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:29:07 -0700
Subject: creationists vs. reality
In-Reply-To: <3B22E08D.60B2A459@prison.net>
References: <3B22E08D.60B2A459@prison.net>
Message-ID:
>At 08:10 AM 6/9/01 -0700, A. Melon wrote:
>>Check out "F*ck the Creationists" by MC Hawking:
>>http://www.mchawking.com/music.html.
>>
>>You can lay the funky shit on them creationists.
>
>Why, when it only takes 4 muscles to pull a trigger, and
>42 to frown?
It takes more than 4 muscles to pull the trigger on even a
well tuned sniper rifle--if you are doing it properly.
--
--
http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html
It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so
afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such
knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense.
From reeza at flex.com Sun Jun 10 20:33:53 2001
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:33:53 -1000
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To:
References: <3.0.6.32.20010610192622.00812360@pop.sprynet.com>
<3.0.6.32.20010607204253.007f6b70@pop.sprynet.com>
<3.0.6.32.20010607204253.007f6b70@pop.sprynet.com>
<3.0.6.32.20010610192622.00812360@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610173227.02eb8b10@flex.com>
At 05:09 PM 6/10/01, petro wrote:
> http://www.snipercentral.com/50bmg.htm
> Also, read what he has to say on the .50BMG page about using
>that round against human targets.
It reads like "do as I say, not as I do."
For extreme range, he doesn't say not to consider it WITH match grade ammo.
Reese
From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Jun 10 18:04:24 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:04:24 -0700
Subject: "This Is Your Brain On Cow"
In-Reply-To: <20010610140941.A212@ils.unc.edu>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010610132418.00ab7d20@mail.well.com>
<5.0.2.1.0.20010610132418.00ab7d20@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010610180007.01b64300@idiom.com>
At 02:09 PM 06/10/2001 -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
>Aha, yes. Being a vegan, I don't need to worry about such things. I
>demonstrate my courage by snorting a line of caffeine, followed by
>some guacamole.
An acquaintance of mine and his druggie friends decided that
since many drugs have different effects depending on whether they're
consumed in original plant form, refined powder, or smoked,
they'd try smoking some caffeine pills.
Crunched up their No-Doz, put it in their pipe and smoked it.
...
Do not try this.
...
Really.
...
Everything caffeine does to you, the jitters, the headaches, etc.,
all at once in a big unpleasant rush...
...
Stick to the brewed stuff.
From petro at bounty.org Sun Jun 10 18:04:46 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:04:46 -0700
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To: <3B241260.402394AE@ameritech.net>
References: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
<3B241260.402394AE@ameritech.net>
Message-ID:
>petro wrote:
>
>> The only good use for a pistol is to fight your way to a rifle.
>> --
>
> True, except that it's not a good idea in most cities and towns to walk
>around carrying a rifle. Or, maybe it is a *good* idea, but some people don't
>like it. And then you're much more likely to have to use it when you really
>didn't want to.
Pistols are *handy*, but that doesn't mean they are a good
tool for the job. They are, at best adequate.
> Trust me, carry a pistol -- concealed --- everything will go much
>better. And trying to carry something like a Desert Eagle concealed, in the
>Summer wearing shorts and tanktop ain't easy. Life is full of conflicts like
>this. Should I, or shouldn't I?
I would, were I in Washington State, or any one of the 8
states that it has reciprocity with, carry my HK-p7. As it is, I live
in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia, one of a minority of states
whose citizens are too ignorant and untrustworthy to be allowed to
carry a concealed weapon.
--
--
http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html
It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so
afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such
knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense.
From honig at sprynet.com Sun Jun 10 18:59:38 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:59:38 -0700
Subject: "This Is Your Brain On Cow"
In-Reply-To: <20010610140941.A212@ils.unc.edu>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010610132418.00ab7d20@mail.well.com>
<5.0.2.1.0.20010610132418.00ab7d20@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010610185938.00808720@pop.sprynet.com>
At 02:09 PM 6/10/01 -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
>This is because there are strict US FDA regulations concerning the use
>of infected beef in restaraunts, but they have little to say about
>what individuals in private homes eat.
>
Indeed there's been a few cases of something like BSE in Americans
who've eaten elk and / or deer. But since the infected aren't fed
back into the population, there's no way for it to spread. (E.g.,
if it arises spontaneously now and then.)
Grass-eaters are not carnivores, much less cannibals, in the wild. By
definition.
From honig at sprynet.com Sun Jun 10 19:26:22 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:26:22 -0700
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To:
References: <3.0.6.32.20010607204253.007f6b70@pop.sprynet.com>
<3.0.6.32.20010607204253.007f6b70@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010610192622.00812360@pop.sprynet.com>
At 04:56 PM 6/10/01 -0700, petro wrote:
>
> A .300 Win Mag or .338 Laupa will do 1000 to 1500 yard hits
>just as well, in a smaller, cheaper, easier to handle package.
In unknown wind? Ok.
> Anything past 800 to 1000 yards is luck and voodoo anyway.
Not me, but others, could contradict this by example.
From honig at sprynet.com Sun Jun 10 19:33:21 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:33:21 -0700
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To:
References: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
<91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010610193321.0080ddd0@pop.sprynet.com>
At 05:11 PM 6/10/01 -0700, petro wrote:
>
> Secondly, if you think *ANY* firearm you can fire standing up
>will "Knock them on their behind", take a high school physics class.
>
Well said, but:
In _The Irish War_ there's a description of IRA improvised recoilless
'rifles' which, like their .mil-industrial analogues, toss an equal
mass out the back end. The reacting countermass is a bunch of flakes
which dissipate the KE against the atmosphere.
[Ie, consider a barrel open at both ends. Put missile, charge, countermass
flakes in that order. Point missile at thing you don't like, and keep
friendlies a few meters away from the countermass ejection end of the barrel.]
........
That said, an (e.g.) hip or knee shot on a biped will cause it to fall
approximately
back if the posture is right. That also is just the physics of actively
balanced inverted pendula, biomechanics.
Cheers,
dh
From hseaver at ameritech.net Sun Jun 10 17:36:06 2001
From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:36:06 -0500
Subject: Automatic's
References: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
Message-ID: <3B241260.402394AE@ameritech.net>
petro wrote:
> The only good use for a pistol is to fight your way to a rifle.
> --
True, except that it's not a good idea in most cities and towns to walk
around carrying a rifle. Or, maybe it is a *good* idea, but some people don't
like it. And then you're much more likely to have to use it when you really
didn't want to.
Trust me, carry a pistol -- concealed --- everything will go much
better. And trying to carry something like a Desert Eagle concealed, in the
Summer wearing shorts and tanktop ain't easy. Life is full of conflicts like
this. Should I, or shouldn't I?
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com
Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net
From petro at bounty.org Sun Jun 10 20:09:55 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 20:09:55 -0700
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010610192622.00812360@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20010607204253.007f6b70@pop.sprynet.com>
<3.0.6.32.20010607204253.007f6b70@pop.sprynet.com>
<3.0.6.32.20010610192622.00812360@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID:
>At 04:56 PM 6/10/01 -0700, petro wrote:
>>
>> A .300 Win Mag or .338 Laupa will do 1000 to 1500 yard hits
>>just as well, in a smaller, cheaper, easier to handle package.
>
>In unknown wind? Ok.
At 1000 to 1500 yards you don't shoot in "unknown wind", you
watch everything *very* carefully.
Even that big ass .50 cal is going to be blown around a bit
by an errant breeze, and at 3000 to 4500 feet, there are a lot of
errant breezes on anything but the flattest, most open terrain.
>> Anything past 800 to 1000 yards is luck and voodoo anyway.
>
>Not me, but others, could contradict this by example.
There are so few who can hit the kinds of targets we are
talking about at those ranges that it is functionally voodoo.
When you get past 1k, you get massive bullet drop and even a
minor wind difference can push your bullet off course, take a look at
these bullet drop tables:
http://www.snipercentral.com/50bmg.htm
http://www.snipercentral.com/338.htm
http://www.snipercentral.com/300.htm
http://www.snipercentral.com/308.htm
Look at how fast the bullets are dropping at 1k yards.
There is an especially nice chart on the .338 page that
graphically compares the four rounds.
When you couple bullet drop with (in a sniper/marksman
scenario) even the *slightest* unknown elevation changes, it becomes
*very* *very* difficult to hit reliably hit a "bravo" sized and
shaped target.
When you factor in time-to-target (over a second at those
ranges) it becomes even more voodoo. Then remember you've got *one*
shot to hit. That first cold barrelled shot is either going to hit,
or alert your target you are there.
Sure, it can be done. With lots of training, luck and voodoo.
Also, read what he has to say on the .50BMG page about using
that round against human targets.
--
--
http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html
It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so
afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such
knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense.
From measl at mfn.org Sun Jun 10 18:14:54 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 20:14:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To: <3B241260.402394AE@ameritech.net>
Message-ID:
On Sun, 10 Jun 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> Trust me, carry a pistol -- concealed --- everything will go much
> better. And trying to carry something like a Desert Eagle concealed, in the
> Summer wearing shorts and tanktop ain't easy. Life is full of conflicts like
> this. Should I, or shouldn't I?
You *should*. But you should also lose the shorts and tank: it's much
easier to properly CCW in slightly heavier clothes ;-)
--
Yours,
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org
If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From petro at bounty.org Sun Jun 10 20:19:47 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 20:19:47 -0700
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010610193321.0080ddd0@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
<91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
<3.0.6.32.20010610193321.0080ddd0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID:
>At 05:11 PM 6/10/01 -0700, petro wrote:
>>
>> Secondly, if you think *ANY* firearm you can fire standing up
>>will "Knock them on their behind", take a high school physics class.
>>
>
>Well said, but:
>In _The Irish War_ there's a description of IRA improvised recoilless
>'rifles' which, like their .mil-industrial analogues, toss an equal
>mass out the back end. The reacting countermass is a bunch of flakes
>which dissipate the KE against the atmosphere.
Sure, but that isn't a cartridge based pistol, which is what
we were talking about.
There are also "gyro-jet" type munitions, which aren't all
that accurate, but can pack a greater punch because they do some or
all of their accelerating post-barrel.
>[Ie, consider a barrel open at both ends. Put missile, charge, countermass
>flakes in that order. Point missile at thing you don't like, and keep
>friendlies a few meters away from the countermass ejection end of the barrel.]
Given that your average pistol fight takes place inside 3 or
4 meters, that could prove tough.
>That said, an (e.g.) hip or knee shot on a biped will cause it to fall
>approximately
>back if the posture is right. That also is just the physics of actively
>balanced inverted pendula, biomechanics.
Knee shots, yes. But if you are that good, might as well go
for the triangle formed by the top center of the lip and the eyebrow
ridges.
That *WILL* cause the target to collapse with anything over a
.22LR, and if you get an eye will 100% guarenteed stop the fight
(with that individual) now. Only one person has survived a shot (by a
firearm) to the eye, and she's been on life support since she was hit
by a .22.
As for the hip, it's a large and relatively porus bone. There
have been a few cases where hip shots have failed to drop an attacker
because the bullet just punched a hole, failing to fracture the hip.
Heart/lung shots and brain shots tend to be your best bet
with a pistol.
--
--
http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html
It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so
afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such
knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense.
From iang at kostunrix.cryptohill.net Sun Jun 10 18:42:55 2001
From: iang at kostunrix.cryptohill.net (Ian Grigg)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 21:42:55 -0400 (AST)
Subject: interview
Message-ID:
Freematt asks question 1: How do you describe yourself? What is
your world view?
Ian Grigg responds: I'm not sure how a paragraph could do justice to
that question!
I'm Australian by passport, although I consider that to be just
part of the mix these days. I've lived for many years in Spain,
Amsterdam, Britain, and now in Anguilla. Each has its own
perspective, although Spain had the greatest formative influence
on me in my adult years.
----------------------------------------------------------
Freematt asks question 2: How have thinkers such as Menger, Von
Mises, and or Hayek influenced your thinking?
Are there any fiction books that have had an impact on your ideas?
Ian Grigg responds: Von Mises is a hazy influence. His writings are
hard to get to,
unlike Hayek, who is accessible to someone without an obsession
with deep economic thought. Mises came with two big ideas that
I've found central. One is the calculation argument, wherein he
argued that central planning could not work on any large scale,
simply because there is no way to calculate the outputs from the
number of inputs. He said that Moscow needed too big a computer,
and he was eventually proven right.
Hayek believed that the market was about information. In Misian
terms, Hayek's market is the great big free computer that saves
us from central planning.
The other big idea is that Mises questioned why it is that we
believe the government could solve problems. Take a complex
situation, and decide as a populace to have the government sort
it out. Well, he questions why it is that we believe that the
government would have the tools to do that? Is it that we
believe that the government is somehow smarter than us? Are
they better educated? In some sense are they capable of being
more objective, more fair, more beneficial?
The answer to all of those is no. Government people are generally
not smarter, if anything, the converse, smart people make more
money in industry. Better educated? Not really. More objective?
Fair? All of these things are just too impossible for words; as
what is fair to one is inequitable to another.
When you think in those sort of Misian terms, it really is a bad
idea to pass the buck to government. We have to sort out the
problems ourselves. And, with government, probably the best we
can hope for is an honest bureaucracy.
Hernando de Soto has done some good work in Peru with the measurement
of corruption and costs in starting firms. Harvard economists took
his idea and measured it across 75 countries and are now providing
the data to support a whole new view of government and bureacracy:
that it grows to create tollways, create chances for private benefit
out of public power. We used to think that regulation was a barrier
to entry, that it arose to create easy conditions for big players.
Now, we're seeing some good data that supports the view that these
barriers are their for the ones who erect the barriers.
All of this thinking is coming out of Mises and Hayek. If the
market is so good, why do we have such big governments? It's no
longer a libertarian or crackpot debate, the serious part of
economic thought is looking at these questions deeply. There's
a long way to go -- the Harvard work assumes too much when it
measures the formal economy and not the informal -- but we are
seeing a great change coming. Out of Hayek, out of Mises.
----------------------------------------------------------
Freematt asks question 3: Do you still think financial crypto depends
on cryptography, software engineering, rights management, accounting,
governance, value, and finance?
Ian Grigg responds: Sure! Well, it's a model, it's a simplification.
There are
other things that go in there. Since I presented that paper
in 2000, I've not heard any serious criticisms or ommissions.
On the other hand, this is only a small field, there aren't
that many companies or people actually testing and advancing
the art. We've only had two successes in the field of FC so
far, being the PayPal and e-gold experiences. So there's not
a lot of hard data to go on.
I think we are still at the point where we can compare and
contrast using the model, but we can't condemn. The lower
layers are better done in e-gold, but it's always been clear
that PayPal understand the application better, that part
that I called the Finance layer.
----------------------------------------------------------
Freematt asks question 4: Are truly anonymous electronic cash systems
the future or do you see governments viewing them as too threatening
to the health of the state and too easy for untraceable blackmail,
extortion, money laundering and asset protection?
Ian Grigg responds: The public perception of the "truly anonymous
electronic cash
system" is a little rosy. There are problems with that. Every
money system has inbuilt protections against what we call "the
bank robbery problem." No matter how we secure the system, we
as builders have to deal with the fact that we will be forced
to turn over the keys, the data, the money, some how some day.
Most of the knowledge of this is internalised or lost to the
current financial system. It's like trying to ask a banker what
banking is, very few of them have the first idea. How do we cope
with a system where one key can sign over millions of dollars on
demand? Or the smart card world's nemesis, the evergreen card
that keeps debiting, debiting, debiting?
The answer is in a series of defenses, in a practical layered
defence rather than the one-big-idea approach that is the espoused
by the blinded school. That means we build in the defences up
front that we can, but we also assume that it is going to happen
one day, so we build in the back up plans or the contingency plans.
Mondex did it for their cards, they called it the meltdown
scenario. One of their ideas was that they could send signals
out to all the cards and have the cards switch algorithms, thus
anticipating a crack. Technically, I think that's a bad idea,
but they thought about it, that's the important thing.
However you do it, a survivable system for money has to have an
ability to open up under system-threatening circumstances. What's
the point in having truly anonymous cash if the cash suddenly
becomes worthless because the issuer goes broke redeeming the
stolen float? For all the brave ideas of those who write about
freedom, anonymous trading, ownership, that all goes to pot the
moment the consumer realises that the system itself cannot
survive. A system has to survive, elsewise it's not money.
But, if you make the system openable, this will result in a
privacy breach for the average user. So, the trick is to make
it costly. Come up with something that costs so much that fishing
trips are not plausible. Something that assists good detective
work, but doesn't obviate the need for good detectives, doesn't
assist the current pass-the-buck philosophy so comfortably
prevalent in financial crime circles.
At Systemics we do it with a hybrid system of nymous light-weight
accounts. The nymous approach implies that we can trace every
transaction in the system, but we cannot identify who is doing
what. That's very powerful -- I can see that you might be spending
10c followed by $1000, or whatever, I just don't know who you
are. Without some other, contributory information, your 10c is
just like any other 10c, and a certain pattern of expenditure
is just some random walk in the transactions of life.
But, when someone busts in and holds my daughter to ransom,
demanding the keys or an account stuffed with booty, we can
simply hand it over. No fear. When the dust settles, we'll
start the detective work and trace that value wheresoever it
went.
I'd feel comfortable about having a daughter under those
circumstances, but if I was guarding the keys to a fully
anonymous system, then I'd rather not have any external stimuli
attached to me at all!
----------------------------------------------------------
Freematt asks question 5: Which nations do you think are the most
free and do you think borders will be more or less important in the
future?
Ian Grigg responds: It's a tough question. I hear over and over
again that the US is the most free, and that the rich countries are
free because
they are rich. Or some such.
That view troubles me. How can you consider a country free when
they hold jurisdiction over you wherever you are? The US is so
powerful, the brand is so dominating, that they can stand alone
in the taxation world and insist that their citizens file for
taxes wherever they are. That's not freedom to me.
Where it takes you 10 years to leave the country? My neighbour
gave up his passport for crypto reasons, he's got another 8 years
or so before they release their hooks.
There was a wave of legislation in the early 90s whereby you
couldn't leave the country if you were in some way suspect. In
Australia it was the deadbeat dads; a database of fathers with
responsibilities stopped these people leaving the country.
That's not freedom. Freedom is the right to cast aside your
responsibilities, leave the country and set up in a new land,
a long long way away. It was this freedom that created most
of the new countries; waves of immigration were perceived to
be a new life and a new workforce for growing nations, but
that's only the pretty side of the coin. On the other side,
those people made the judgement that the time had come to cast
aside the taught view of responsibility.
As a society, we have to allow the escape valve to exist, elsewise
we abrogate our humanity. Only the individual knows when it
is a lost cause, only he or she knows that it's time to start
over again with a new life.
----------------------------------------------------------
Freematt asks question 6: What exactly does your company systemics.com sell?
Ian Grigg responds: Systemics primarily licenses its Ricardo Issuance Server,
which is a product that you can use to issue and run an Internet
currency. Or a share, bond or other fungible thing of value.
The client side is the WebFunds.org open source group, and
program, that we are setting up. Systemics tries to make
money on the issuance side, and we encourage all of our issuer
customers to pitch in and improve the software on the user side.
We also sell some applications. The design goals for our value
architecture, Ricardo, was to support the specific application
of financial trading. The buying and selling of stocks, bonds,
and other things. We have an exchange and a user plugin to
WebFunds which enables those things.
For retail, we're working with Intertrader, a Scottish company that
provides interfaces for facilitating transactions. They hope to
demonstrate at the Edinburgh Financial Cryptography Engineering
conference in a couple of weeks, we're hoping to see a seamless
transaction flow from retail side, into the financial system and
out again, back into the retail side. All crossing from one
payment system to another.
----------------------------------------------------------
Freematt asks question 7: Where do you see yourself in ten years?
What do you want to accomplish both personally and professionally?
Ian Grigg responds: I want to see this financial system built. For
that, we need
partners, lots of them, all acting as equals, as peers. Intertrader
is a good example. Their area is in facilitation software for other
people's transactions, our area is in the primary transactions for
trading. Neither of us wants the other's patch, so we can work
together on a range of projects without egos and greed getting in
the way.
We need other partners that want to issue. The Hansa Bank, here
in Anguilla, issues our Ricardian dollar. We'll do the technology,
they do the contract that the users rely upon.
That's really as far as Hansa is prepared to go for the moment,
which is a double-plus for us. Firstly, we get that critical
money instrument, and secondly, they are minding their knitting,
not trying to create a franchise in wool supply.
We're in the process of creating independantly issued instruments
for trading. Some of the most exciting opportunities is based on
the work I mentioned above by Hernando de Soto. We're looking to
take our efficient trading and value management into one of the
world's most inefficient but far-reaching financial systems, that
of microfinance. I can't really talk about the details, they are
still under wraps, but I can talk about the obvious parts.
At the moment, microfinance is based on huge chains of volunteer
or otherwise soft labour. Hundreds and hundreds of transactions
are needed to get a circle of five their first loan, in western
terms, the first ten transactions would swallow the principal,
let alone any return on investment. We aim to change all that,
by giving them transactions and financial industry techniques
that work at their level.
To know that the ideas that we developed are pushing capital out
to small villages, that's a challenge! Where I can get a $2
transaction in 100 milliseconds and $10 trade in less than a
second, efficiently. And, do all this into a place where it
would take me 5 days to get there physically; places with just
a single PC and a satellite dish, but with a repressed urge to
work and work and honestly build their way up and out. Knowing
that our ideas helped that, that's where I want to be in 10 years.
--
iang
**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************
From iang at kostunrix.cryptohill.net Sun Jun 10 18:42:55 2001
From: iang at kostunrix.cryptohill.net (Ian Grigg)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 21:42:55 -0400 (AST)
Subject: interview
Message-ID:
Freematt asks question 1: How do you describe yourself? What is
your world view?
Ian Grigg responds: I'm not sure how a paragraph could do justice to
that question!
I'm Australian by passport, although I consider that to be just
part of the mix these days. I've lived for many years in Spain,
Amsterdam, Britain, and now in Anguilla. Each has its own
perspective, although Spain had the greatest formative influence
on me in my adult years.
----------------------------------------------------------
Freematt asks question 2: How have thinkers such as Menger, Von
Mises, and or Hayek influenced your thinking?
Are there any fiction books that have had an impact on your ideas?
Ian Grigg responds: Von Mises is a hazy influence. His writings are
hard to get to,
unlike Hayek, who is accessible to someone without an obsession
with deep economic thought. Mises came with two big ideas that
I've found central. One is the calculation argument, wherein he
argued that central planning could not work on any large scale,
simply because there is no way to calculate the outputs from the
number of inputs. He said that Moscow needed too big a computer,
and he was eventually proven right.
Hayek believed that the market was about information. In Misian
terms, Hayek's market is the great big free computer that saves
us from central planning.
The other big idea is that Mises questioned why it is that we
believe the government could solve problems. Take a complex
situation, and decide as a populace to have the government sort
it out. Well, he questions why it is that we believe that the
government would have the tools to do that? Is it that we
believe that the government is somehow smarter than us? Are
they better educated? In some sense are they capable of being
more objective, more fair, more beneficial?
The answer to all of those is no. Government people are generally
not smarter, if anything, the converse, smart people make more
money in industry. Better educated? Not really. More objective?
Fair? All of these things are just too impossible for words; as
what is fair to one is inequitable to another.
When you think in those sort of Misian terms, it really is a bad
idea to pass the buck to government. We have to sort out the
problems ourselves. And, with government, probably the best we
can hope for is an honest bureaucracy.
Hernando de Soto has done some good work in Peru with the measurement
of corruption and costs in starting firms. Harvard economists took
his idea and measured it across 75 countries and are now providing
the data to support a whole new view of government and bureacracy:
that it grows to create tollways, create chances for private benefit
out of public power. We used to think that regulation was a barrier
to entry, that it arose to create easy conditions for big players.
Now, we're seeing some good data that supports the view that these
barriers are their for the ones who erect the barriers.
All of this thinking is coming out of Mises and Hayek. If the
market is so good, why do we have such big governments? It's no
longer a libertarian or crackpot debate, the serious part of
economic thought is looking at these questions deeply. There's
a long way to go -- the Harvard work assumes too much when it
measures the formal economy and not the informal -- but we are
seeing a great change coming. Out of Hayek, out of Mises.
----------------------------------------------------------
Freematt asks question 3: Do you still think financial crypto depends
on cryptography, software engineering, rights management, accounting,
governance, value, and finance?
Ian Grigg responds: Sure! Well, it's a model, it's a simplification.
There are
other things that go in there. Since I presented that paper
in 2000, I've not heard any serious criticisms or ommissions.
On the other hand, this is only a small field, there aren't
that many companies or people actually testing and advancing
the art. We've only had two successes in the field of FC so
far, being the PayPal and e-gold experiences. So there's not
a lot of hard data to go on.
I think we are still at the point where we can compare and
contrast using the model, but we can't condemn. The lower
layers are better done in e-gold, but it's always been clear
that PayPal understand the application better, that part
that I called the Finance layer.
----------------------------------------------------------
Freematt asks question 4: Are truly anonymous electronic cash systems
the future or do you see governments viewing them as too threatening
to the health of the state and too easy for untraceable blackmail,
extortion, money laundering and asset protection?
Ian Grigg responds: The public perception of the "truly anonymous
electronic cash
system" is a little rosy. There are problems with that. Every
money system has inbuilt protections against what we call "the
bank robbery problem." No matter how we secure the system, we
as builders have to deal with the fact that we will be forced
to turn over the keys, the data, the money, some how some day.
Most of the knowledge of this is internalised or lost to the
current financial system. It's like trying to ask a banker what
banking is, very few of them have the first idea. How do we cope
with a system where one key can sign over millions of dollars on
demand? Or the smart card world's nemesis, the evergreen card
that keeps debiting, debiting, debiting?
The answer is in a series of defenses, in a practical layered
defence rather than the one-big-idea approach that is the espoused
by the blinded school. That means we build in the defences up
front that we can, but we also assume that it is going to happen
one day, so we build in the back up plans or the contingency plans.
Mondex did it for their cards, they called it the meltdown
scenario. One of their ideas was that they could send signals
out to all the cards and have the cards switch algorithms, thus
anticipating a crack. Technically, I think that's a bad idea,
but they thought about it, that's the important thing.
However you do it, a survivable system for money has to have an
ability to open up under system-threatening circumstances. What's
the point in having truly anonymous cash if the cash suddenly
becomes worthless because the issuer goes broke redeeming the
stolen float? For all the brave ideas of those who write about
freedom, anonymous trading, ownership, that all goes to pot the
moment the consumer realises that the system itself cannot
survive. A system has to survive, elsewise it's not money.
But, if you make the system openable, this will result in a
privacy breach for the average user. So, the trick is to make
it costly. Come up with something that costs so much that fishing
trips are not plausible. Something that assists good detective
work, but doesn't obviate the need for good detectives, doesn't
assist the current pass-the-buck philosophy so comfortably
prevalent in financial crime circles.
At Systemics we do it with a hybrid system of nymous light-weight
accounts. The nymous approach implies that we can trace every
transaction in the system, but we cannot identify who is doing
what. That's very powerful -- I can see that you might be spending
10c followed by $1000, or whatever, I just don't know who you
are. Without some other, contributory information, your 10c is
just like any other 10c, and a certain pattern of expenditure
is just some random walk in the transactions of life.
But, when someone busts in and holds my daughter to ransom,
demanding the keys or an account stuffed with booty, we can
simply hand it over. No fear. When the dust settles, we'll
start the detective work and trace that value wheresoever it
went.
I'd feel comfortable about having a daughter under those
circumstances, but if I was guarding the keys to a fully
anonymous system, then I'd rather not have any external stimuli
attached to me at all!
----------------------------------------------------------
Freematt asks question 5: Which nations do you think are the most
free and do you think borders will be more or less important in the
future?
Ian Grigg responds: It's a tough question. I hear over and over
again that the US is the most free, and that the rich countries are
free because
they are rich. Or some such.
That view troubles me. How can you consider a country free when
they hold jurisdiction over you wherever you are? The US is so
powerful, the brand is so dominating, that they can stand alone
in the taxation world and insist that their citizens file for
taxes wherever they are. That's not freedom to me.
Where it takes you 10 years to leave the country? My neighbour
gave up his passport for crypto reasons, he's got another 8 years
or so before they release their hooks.
There was a wave of legislation in the early 90s whereby you
couldn't leave the country if you were in some way suspect. In
Australia it was the deadbeat dads; a database of fathers with
responsibilities stopped these people leaving the country.
That's not freedom. Freedom is the right to cast aside your
responsibilities, leave the country and set up in a new land,
a long long way away. It was this freedom that created most
of the new countries; waves of immigration were perceived to
be a new life and a new workforce for growing nations, but
that's only the pretty side of the coin. On the other side,
those people made the judgement that the time had come to cast
aside the taught view of responsibility.
As a society, we have to allow the escape valve to exist, elsewise
we abrogate our humanity. Only the individual knows when it
is a lost cause, only he or she knows that it's time to start
over again with a new life.
----------------------------------------------------------
Freematt asks question 6: What exactly does your company systemics.com sell?
Ian Grigg responds: Systemics primarily licenses its Ricardo Issuance Server,
which is a product that you can use to issue and run an Internet
currency. Or a share, bond or other fungible thing of value.
The client side is the WebFunds.org open source group, and
program, that we are setting up. Systemics tries to make
money on the issuance side, and we encourage all of our issuer
customers to pitch in and improve the software on the user side.
We also sell some applications. The design goals for our value
architecture, Ricardo, was to support the specific application
of financial trading. The buying and selling of stocks, bonds,
and other things. We have an exchange and a user plugin to
WebFunds which enables those things.
For retail, we're working with Intertrader, a Scottish company that
provides interfaces for facilitating transactions. They hope to
demonstrate at the Edinburgh Financial Cryptography Engineering
conference in a couple of weeks, we're hoping to see a seamless
transaction flow from retail side, into the financial system and
out again, back into the retail side. All crossing from one
payment system to another.
----------------------------------------------------------
Freematt asks question 7: Where do you see yourself in ten years?
What do you want to accomplish both personally and professionally?
Ian Grigg responds: I want to see this financial system built. For
that, we need
partners, lots of them, all acting as equals, as peers. Intertrader
is a good example. Their area is in facilitation software for other
people's transactions, our area is in the primary transactions for
trading. Neither of us wants the other's patch, so we can work
together on a range of projects without egos and greed getting in
the way.
We need other partners that want to issue. The Hansa Bank, here
in Anguilla, issues our Ricardian dollar. We'll do the technology,
they do the contract that the users rely upon.
That's really as far as Hansa is prepared to go for the moment,
which is a double-plus for us. Firstly, we get that critical
money instrument, and secondly, they are minding their knitting,
not trying to create a franchise in wool supply.
We're in the process of creating independantly issued instruments
for trading. Some of the most exciting opportunities is based on
the work I mentioned above by Hernando de Soto. We're looking to
take our efficient trading and value management into one of the
world's most inefficient but far-reaching financial systems, that
of microfinance. I can't really talk about the details, they are
still under wraps, but I can talk about the obvious parts.
At the moment, microfinance is based on huge chains of volunteer
or otherwise soft labour. Hundreds and hundreds of transactions
are needed to get a circle of five their first loan, in western
terms, the first ten transactions would swallow the principal,
let alone any return on investment. We aim to change all that,
by giving them transactions and financial industry techniques
that work at their level.
To know that the ideas that we developed are pushing capital out
to small villages, that's a challenge! Where I can get a $2
transaction in 100 milliseconds and $10 trade in less than a
second, efficiently. And, do all this into a place where it
would take me 5 days to get there physically; places with just
a single PC and a satellite dish, but with a repressed urge to
work and work and honestly build their way up and out. Knowing
that our ideas helped that, that's where I want to be in 10 years.
--
iang
**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************
From declan at well.com Sun Jun 10 18:46:08 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 21:46:08 -0400
Subject: Environmentalists try federalism approach
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010610214527.02233ec0@mail.well.com>
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010609/ts/bush_oil_ethanol_4.html
Environmentalists said the administration was preventing California from
deciding for itself how best to protect the public health and clean air and
drinking water supplies.
From JonathanW at gbgcorp.com Sun Jun 10 22:03:12 2001
From: JonathanW at gbgcorp.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:03:12 -0700
Subject: Automatic's
Message-ID: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775C@MISSERVER>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
I also own a Para-Ordnance P10, a subcompact 1911 variant with a
3-inch barrel, a 2 finger grip (unless you have the Pearce magazine
floorplates with the pinkie rest) and a 10-round magazine. I am fond
of it, and can shoot approximately 2" groups with it at 10 yards. I
think it would be a decent choice for general self-defense, but I
wouldn't really want to use it against an armored opponent since a
.45 ACP's relatively low velocity and large frontal area equate to
poor armor penetration. It is certainly lighter and more concealable
than my Desert Eagle, though.
Of course a MAK-90 with a 75-round drum has merit in a scenario
involving armored home invaders...
- -----Original Message-----
From: cubic-dog [mailto:dog3 at charc.net]
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 12:33 PM
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: CDR: RE: Automatic's
On Sat, 9 Jun 2001, David Honig wrote:
> At 04:07 PM 6/8/01 -0700, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >Hash: SHA1
> >
> >I can fire 9 shots in about 4 seconds and stay in the 9 ring of a
> >B-27 silhouette at 10 yards, and slow fire I can neatly remove the
> >X-ring at the same distance...I don't think it would be a bad
> >option against an armored opponent--2 in the body to knock them on
> >their
>
> Yawn. Take off your glasses, shoot with your off-hand, at pigs
> in flak, then talk to me.
I'ma M1911 man myself. I have fired this weapon in question
and found it quite agreeable. I was pretty amazed. I thought
they were just toys for rich kids.
However, if you need a rifle, take a rifle.
For the bulk of that thing, might was well carry
a carbine.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use
iQA/AwUBOyRRERj6oMyeDxZoEQLckgCfYc+DpuKKbIvDXEpYKwnr07z0p4AAnj7s
sZzW4HzCUjeDIvu6SkwRMDMI
=Eg5g
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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From nikita.heaven at tvsexonline.org.toad.com Sun Jun 10 22:25:47 2001
From: nikita.heaven at tvsexonline.org.toad.com (nikita.heaven at tvsexonline.org.toad.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:25:47
Subject: NEW! SEX VIDEO CLUB ONLINE!
Message-ID: <200106102021.NAA13003@ecotone.toad.com>
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-------------------------------------------------------------------
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From petro at bounty.org Sun Jun 10 22:32:14 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:32:14 -0700
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
>it's not that difficult to get a CCW in California if you are willing to go
>to the effort required. Give me a call if you want more info.
I know the effort required:
(1) Make a significant campaign donation to your local Sheriff or CLEO.
(2) "Establish Residency" in one of the four or five counties
where the local CLEO operates on a "Shall Issue" basis.
(3) Become a reserve officer in a local PD that grants off-duty carry.
I am morally opposed to (1) even if I did have the money. As
to (2), I don't have the money. (3) is doable, and has other benefits
(you get access to LEO only training classes at places like Gunsite,
Thunder Ranch and AWT), but I don't have the time or money.
--
--
http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html
It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so
afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such
knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense.
From petro at bounty.org Sun Jun 10 23:08:19 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:08:19 -0700
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610173227.02eb8b10@flex.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20010610192622.00812360@pop.sprynet.com>
<3.0.6.32.20010607204253.007f6b70@pop.sprynet.com>
<3.0.6.32.20010607204253.007f6b70@pop.sprynet.com>
<3.0.6.32.20010610192622.00812360@pop.sprynet.com>
<4.3.2.7.2.20010610173227.02eb8b10@flex.com>
Message-ID:
>At 05:09 PM 6/10/01, petro wrote:
>
>> http://www.snipercentral.com/50bmg.htm
>
>
>> Also, read what he has to say on the .50BMG page about using
>>that round against human targets.
>
>It reads like "do as I say, not as I do."
>
>For extreme range, he doesn't say not to consider it WITH match grade ammo.
Whatever. Dream your dreams, live your fantasies.
Then go to the range and try it.
--
--
http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html
It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so
afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such
knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense.
From petro at bounty.org Sun Jun 10 23:09:41 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:09:41 -0700
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
Oops, that was supposed to only go to the original sender, it was
private email. I screw up.
Sorry.
>>it's not that difficult to get a CCW in California if you are willing to go
>>to the effort required. Give me a call if you want more info.
>
> I know the effort required:
>
> (1) Make a significant campaign donation to your local Sheriff or CLEO.
> (2) "Establish Residency" in one of the four or five counties
>where the local CLEO operates on a "Shall Issue" basis.
> (3) Become a reserve officer in a local PD that grants off-duty carry.
>
> I am morally opposed to (1) even if I did have the money. As
>to (2), I don't have the money. (3) is doable, and has other
>benefits (you get access to LEO only training classes at places like
>Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and AWT), but I don't have the time or money.
--
--
http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html
It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so
afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such
knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense.
From schear at lvcm.com Sun Jun 10 23:23:03 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:23:03 -0700
Subject: Substantive Due Process
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010610230638.03382f60@pop3.lvcm.com>
At 12:54 AM 6/10/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>The problem with the due "Process Clause" is it injects a false distinction
>with respect to 'types' of rights. See the first two sentences of the DoI
>for a clarification of the only operable definition of 'right' acceptable in
>
>
>I'm going to have to admit that I've pretty much lost the thread of the
>argument here- I'm just trying to point out that under the incorperation
>doctrine, the 14th amendment has been used to expand the bill of rights to
>apply to the states. No, the constitution doesn't explicitly state this. But
>the supreme court says that it is part of the constitution, which pretty much
>makes it so (yes, there are some important legal distinctions between court
>opinions and the Constitution itself, but for the most part, they function as
>the same thing, with the opinions footnoting the Constitution).
It is accepted jurisprudence that one is not required to obey
unconstitutional laws. Of course, one can be incarcerated for failing to
do so until one is able to prevail in court. As has been pointed out many
times on this list, a number of significant SC decisions (e.g., Commerce
Clause as a basis for much of Federal law) appear to fly in the face of a
plain reading of the Constitution and its reasonable interpretation from
historical documents (e.g., Madison's excellent notes during the
constitutional convention).
Since FDR the SC has generally supported expansion of federal authority at
the expense of State and individual rights. A few recent decisions have
shaken the confidence of the left that this trend will continue
unchecked. Let's hope the current members can stay on long enough to
reverse some of the damage done in the past century.
steve
From waltergn at e-mail-me.com Sun Jun 10 23:27:50 2001
From: waltergn at e-mail-me.com (Walt)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:27:50
Subject: FREE SHOPPING MALL!
Message-ID: <200106110620.f5B6KwB19392@rigel.cyberpass.net>
FREE online Mall with Rebates which could be built into a HOME BUSINESS. For information
put YES in the subject and return.
If not interested CLICK-DELETE!
Thanks,
Marilyn and Walt
This information is being sent in compliance with Senate Bill 1618, Title 3, Section 301. To be
removed from this list please put REMOVE in the subject and return
From info at bhnutritionals.com Sun Jun 10 23:33:18 2001
From: info at bhnutritionals.com (info at bhnutritionals.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:33:18
Subject: HOLLYWOOD GOES MLM (1-800-746-1619)
Message-ID: <200106110438.XAA15895@einstein.ssz.com>
Pre-Launch starts 6-1-01
Beverly Hills Nutritionals
48 Hour Miracle Diet
Health Product of the decade
Free Web site and hosting
Call: 1-800-746-1619 (Recorded Message)
FOD: 1-403-934-6061 (Code: 675501)
HTTP://EXPAGE.COM/BEVERLYHILLSNUTRITIONALS
From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sun Jun 10 14:50:22 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:50:22 +0200
Subject:
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609145309.00cb5da0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <3B23EB9E.CA4D57C1@lrz.uni-muenchen.de>
Reese wrote:
>
> At 07:09 AM 6/9/01, John Yeomans wrote:
> > Send me the instructions to make a stink bomb
> > please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Follow the recipe below, consume, and wait.
>
> Take:
http://www.calpoly.edu/~drjones/CW00/Nerve2000/synthesis_of_vx.html
-- Eugen* Leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO : N48 10'07'' E011 33'53'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3
From tcmay at got.net Mon Jun 11 00:46:31 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:46:31 -0700
Subject: Automatics
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010610193321.0080ddd0@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
<91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
<3.0.6.32.20010610193321.0080ddd0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID:
("Automatic's" in thread name changed to "Automatics" for obvious reasons.)
At 7:33 PM -0700 6/10/01, David Honig wrote:
>At 05:11 PM 6/10/01 -0700, petro wrote:
>>
>> Secondly, if you think *ANY* firearm you can fire standing up
>>will "Knock them on their behind", take a high school physics class.
>>
>
>Well said, but:
>In _The Irish War_ there's a description of IRA improvised recoilless
>'rifles' which, like their .mil-industrial analogues, toss an equal
>mass out the back end. The reacting countermass is a bunch of flakes
>which dissipate the KE against the atmosphere.
>
>[Ie, consider a barrel open at both ends. Put missile, charge, countermass
>flakes in that order. Point missile at thing you don't like, and keep
>friendlies a few meters away from the countermass ejection end of the barrel.]
>
>........
>
>That said, an (e.g.) hip or knee shot on a biped will cause it to fall
>approximately
>back if the posture is right. That also is just the physics of actively
>balanced inverted pendula, biomechanics.
Speaking of physics, your physics is out of whack.
For the recoilless rifle described above, there is no need to
"dissipate the KE" of the flakes or anything else! Once the flakes
(or whatever) are propelled backward, it doesn't matter whether they
flutter in the wind or fly to China. (This is all very similar to the
common misconception that rockets "push" on the atmosphere as they
expel exhaust particles. They don't.)
And KE (kinetic energy, for anyone just joining in and wondering) is
not what matters for recoil calculations. Momentum, MV, is what
matters.
How this Irish makeshift recoilless rifle actually works is unknown
to me, but the dissipation of KE by the chaff is not germane. The
expulsions of some mass (M) at some velocity (V) is germane, as
above, but not the way the mass behaves once it has been propelled
backward.
--Tim May
--
Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
From tcmay at got.net Mon Jun 11 00:55:15 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:55:15 -0700
Subject: Social Security Numbers and health insurance
In-Reply-To: <20010611034701.26587.qmail@sidereal.kz>
References: <20010611034701.26587.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID:
At 3:47 AM +0000 6/11/01, Dr. Evil wrote:
>I need to sign up for health insurance tomorrow. I'm going to buy
>individual coverage from Kaiser. On their form, it asks for an SSN,
>of course.
>
>Well, Kaiser is not a government agency, and is certainly not
>associated with the Social Security Adminisrtation in any way, so they
>have no legitimate need for my SSN, and I don't want to give it to
>them.
Then don't give it to them. You can refuse to supply the number, they
can refuse to sell you a policy, and you can both walk away.
>I'm wondering how best to go about doing this:
>
>1. I could make up an SSN and give it to them. I basically just have
> to make sure it's one that hasn't been taken, and corresponds to my
> real birth county, right?
This would be contract fraud. When they ultimately detect it, they
will have grounds for extreme actions.
>
>2. I could say that I don't have an SSN. Most people in the world
> don't have SSNs. Would they then require proof that I'm not a US
> citizen? Or will they just assign me some kind of policy number?
> That would be ideal.
Those who are not U.S. citizens but who work in the U.S. are still
required to have taxpayer identification numbers. If you claim you
are a tourist just visiting the U.S. with no intention of working or
investing, they may assign you a number IF they decide to take your
business. If they determine you lied to them, see above about the
extreme actions.
>3. I could refuse to give it to them, but I think they would probably
> then refuse to give me coverage.
Indeed, their selling you a policy is not required.
>
>Any thoughts? I have absolutely no health problems that I'm aware of,
>and I'm not trying to hide any pre-existing condition, and my only
>medical records are things which say, "he's healthy", so I'm not
>trying to commit any kind of fraud here, I just want my privacy.
Then deal with an insurance company which doesn't require SSNs. If
you cannot find one, too bad.
--Tim May
--
Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
From tcmay at got.net Mon Jun 11 01:06:43 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 01:06:43 -0700
Subject: Automatics
In-Reply-To: <008501c0f242$1ef8f790$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
References: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
<91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
<3.0.6.32.20010610193321.0080ddd0@pop.sprynet.com>
<008501c0f242$1ef8f790$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
Message-ID:
At 1:45 AM -0500 6/11/01, Jon Beets wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "petro"
>To:
>Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 10:19 PM
>Subject: RE: Automatic's
>
>
>> That *WILL* cause the target to collapse with anything over a
>> .22LR, and if you get an eye will 100% guarenteed stop the fight
>> (with that individual) now. Only one person has survived a shot (by a
>> firearm) to the eye, and she's been on life support since she was hit
>> by a .22.
>
>Where did this statistic come from? I find it fairly hard to believe....
>
"98.73% of all facts reported on the Net are simply made up."
Many people have survived gunshots to the eyes. They may be blind in
the eye hit, but they survived. That Petro would repeat some bizarre
claim he's heard that only person has ever survived a gunshot wound
to the eye--"and she's been on life support since she was hit by a
.22"--reminds me of why I tend to ignore most of what Petro posts.
Maybe it's just summer vacation. I have suddenly seen a burst of
posts from Reese and Petro. At least they're not Choate.
--Tim May
--
Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
From Jon.Beets at pacer.com Sun Jun 10 23:45:36 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 01:45:36 -0500
Subject: Automatic's
References: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER> <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER> <3.0.6.32.20010610193321.0080ddd0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <008501c0f242$1ef8f790$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "petro"
To:
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 10:19 PM
Subject: RE: Automatic's
> That *WILL* cause the target to collapse with anything over a
> .22LR, and if you get an eye will 100% guarenteed stop the fight
> (with that individual) now. Only one person has survived a shot (by a
> firearm) to the eye, and she's been on life support since she was hit
> by a .22.
Where did this statistic come from? I find it fairly hard to believe....
Jon
From drevil at sidereal.kz Sun Jun 10 20:47:01 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 11 Jun 2001 03:47:01 -0000
Subject: Social Security Numbers and health insurance
Message-ID: <20010611034701.26587.qmail@sidereal.kz>
I need to sign up for health insurance tomorrow. I'm going to buy
individual coverage from Kaiser. On their form, it asks for an SSN,
of course.
Well, Kaiser is not a government agency, and is certainly not
associated with the Social Security Adminisrtation in any way, so they
have no legitimate need for my SSN, and I don't want to give it to
them. I'm wondering how best to go about doing this:
1. I could make up an SSN and give it to them. I basically just have
to make sure it's one that hasn't been taken, and corresponds to my
real birth county, right?
2. I could say that I don't have an SSN. Most people in the world
don't have SSNs. Would they then require proof that I'm not a US
citizen? Or will they just assign me some kind of policy number?
That would be ideal.
3. I could refuse to give it to them, but I think they would probably
then refuse to give me coverage.
Any thoughts? I have absolutely no health problems that I'm aware of,
and I'm not trying to hide any pre-existing condition, and my only
medical records are things which say, "he's healthy", so I'm not
trying to commit any kind of fraud here, I just want my privacy.
Thanks
From cmcurtin at interhack.net Mon Jun 11 03:28:32 2001
From: cmcurtin at interhack.net (C Matthew Curtin)
Date: 11 Jun 2001 06:28:32 -0400
Subject: CNBC piece about privacy policies
In-Reply-To:
References: <15130.4129.951979.640985@lucy.heinicke.org>
Message-ID:
>>>>> "Tim" == Tim May writes:
Tim> This is probably a design feature, not a bug.
Agreed. Privacy policies aren't so much policies to protect privacy
as much as they are obscurely-phrased statements of what they're going
to do whilst being effectively immune from lawsuits. ("You agreed to
it! You didn't opt out!")
Tim> My recourse is to take my business elsewhere, of course.
Finding anyone in the industry who doesn't work this way is a trick.
Maybe we need a Cypherpunk Bank.
--
Matt Curtin cmcurtin at interhack.net http://www.interhack.net/people/cmcurtin/
From cmcurtin at interhack.net Mon Jun 11 03:32:49 2001
From: cmcurtin at interhack.net (C Matthew Curtin)
Date: 11 Jun 2001 06:32:49 -0400
Subject: HTTP redirection?
In-Reply-To: <20010603190020.A6797@digitalkingdom.org>
References: <20010603190020.A6797@digitalkingdom.org>
Message-ID:
>>>>> "Robin" == Robin Lee Powell writes:
Robin> Did anything like this ever actually get going?
ZeroKnowledge Systems offers Freedom. http://www.freedom.net/
--
Matt Curtin cmcurtin at interhack.net http://www.interhack.net/people/cmcurtin/
From cmcurtin at interhack.net Mon Jun 11 03:39:09 2001
From: cmcurtin at interhack.net (C Matthew Curtin)
Date: 11 Jun 2001 06:39:09 -0400
Subject: Social Security Numbers and health insurance
In-Reply-To: <20010611034701.26587.qmail@sidereal.kz>
References: <20010611034701.26587.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID:
>>>>> "drevil" == drevil writes:
drevil> 3. I could refuse to give it to them, but I think they would
drevil> probably then refuse to give me coverage.
Don't give it to them. Tell them about your concerns and they just
might find a way to deal. Many will, if pressed, assign an alternate
ID number.
--
Matt Curtin cmcurtin at interhack.net http://www.interhack.net/people/cmcurtin/
From remailer at xganon.com Mon Jun 11 05:18:15 2001
From: remailer at xganon.com (Public )
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 07:18:15 -0500
Subject: SSNs
Message-ID: <243aa80d4ac0887e8c309bcfe4828a7f@anon.xg.nu>
I am an American citizen.
In 30 years I have never given a valid social security number to anyone.
I can't.
I don't have one.
I hold a regular high-paying job. I get a paycheck. My employer uses ADP. I have a driver's license. I have a bank account. I have good health insurance. I pay my taxes.
Not once have I had a real problem. Any minor problems that have come up over the years, and there have been very few, always go away when ignored dilligently.
Just give those facists a fake number.
Good luck.
Signed,
322-33-0007
From measl at mfn.org Mon Jun 11 05:32:37 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 07:32:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Automatics
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
> >From: "petro"
> >> That *WILL* cause the target to collapse with anything over a
> >> .22LR, and if you get an eye will 100% guarenteed stop the fight
> >> (with that individual) now. Only one person has survived a shot (by a
> >> firearm) to the eye, and she's been on life support since she was hit
> >> by a .22.
This is a load of total crap. My ex-partner's ex-partner (he decided he'd
had enough after this one), was shot point blank with a .380: the
projectile literally followed the course around the back of the skull,
exiting very close to the opposing eye. Total damage was some loss of
sight in the eye whose socket was penetrated (mostly from burns), and a
really nervous disposition from then on in...
And no, he's not on life support. Although, according to popular stories,
he *is* lucky it was a .380. These slugs have an almost mythical
reputation for doing this kind of weird shit. Of course they are just as
strange for the shooter, what with all the jamming and whatnot
(personally, I think the cartridge is simply too short to feed reliably as
an automatic, but I realize that YMMV.
--
Yours,
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org
If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From hseaver at ameritech.net Mon Jun 11 06:00:50 2001
From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:00:50 -0500
Subject: Social Security Numbers and health insurance
References: <20010611034701.26587.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <3B24C102.C6631BC0@ameritech.net>
"Dr. Evil" wrote:
> 1. I could make up an SSN and give it to them. I basically just have
> to make sure it's one that hasn't been taken, and corresponds to my
> real birth county, right?
>
Wasn't that one of the things Jim Bell was charged with?
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com
Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net
From hseaver at ameritech.net Mon Jun 11 06:51:04 2001
From: hseaver at ameritech.net (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:51:04 -0500
Subject: SSNs
References: <243aa80d4ac0887e8c309bcfe4828a7f@anon.xg.nu>
Message-ID: <3B24CCC6.3DCA0C68@ameritech.net>
So for 30 you've been paying in to SS, but you'll never collect, nor could you collect unemployment if laid off --- you like making large donations to the government? I
guess I have a hard time seeing what the point is. And yes, I understand all the arguments over the years about "national ID" and all that, and I can understand if someone works
for himself and *doesn't" pay in to the SS system, but ....
"Public " wrote:
> I am an American citizen.
>
> In 30 years I have never given a valid social security number to anyone.
>
> I can't.
>
> I don't have one.
>
> I hold a regular high-paying job. I get a paycheck. My employer uses ADP. I have a driver's license. I have a bank account. I have good health insurance. I pay my taxes.
>
> Not once have I had a real problem. Any minor problems that have come up over the years, and there have been very few, always go away when ignored dilligently.
>
> Just give those facists a fake number.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Signed,
>
> 322-33-0007
--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633 hseaver at cybershamanix.com
Home 920-233-5820 hseaver at ameritech.net
From rsw at MIT.EDU Mon Jun 11 06:03:22 2001
From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:03:22 -0400
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010610192622.00812360@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 07:26:22PM -0700
References: <3.0.6.32.20010607204253.007f6b70@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010607204253.007f6b70@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20010610192622.00812360@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20010611090322.A16783@positron.mit.edu>
At 04:56 PM 6/10/01 -0700, petro wrote:
>
> A .300 Win Mag or .338 Laupa will do 1000 to 1500 yard hits
>just as well, in a smaller, cheaper, easier to handle package.
The .300 Win Mag delivers about 3500 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle.
The .50 BMG delivers 13000 ft-lbs. You use a .300 Win Mag for killing
people. You use a .50 BMG for taking out trucks and small structures.
In other words, apples and oranges.
> Anything past 800 to 1000 yards is luck and voodoo anyway.
I'm with David on this one. Maybe to me, but not to some.
--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002
5105
From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Mon Jun 11 10:06:50 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:06:50 -0800 (PDT)
Subject: Social Security Numbers and health insurance
Message-ID: <200106111606.JAA08529@user5.hushmail.com>
At 03:47 AM 6/11/2001 +0000, Dr. Evil" wrote:
I need to sign up for health insurance tomorrow. I'm going to buy
individual coverage from Kaiser. On their form, it asks for an SSN,
of course.
Well, Kaiser is not a government agency, and is certainly not
associated with the Social Security Adminisrtation in any way, so they
have no legitimate need for my SSN, and I don't want to give it to
them. I'm wondering how best to go about doing this:
1. I could make up an SSN and give it to them. I basically just have
to make sure it's one that hasn't been taken, and corresponds to my
real birth county, right?
================================
Try this instead....
1. Get copies of the forms they wish you to sign.
2. Re-image and delete any wording which "certifies under perjury" that
the information is correct. Add or change the revision numbering sequence
info, so later you can counter claims it was a fraudulent submission ("Hey,
check the revision number, its not your form you accepted but mine.)
Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com
From jds at gwi.net Mon Jun 11 06:31:36 2001
From: jds at gwi.net (Justin Smith)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:31:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID:
From alqaeda at hq.org Mon Jun 11 10:08:11 2001
From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:08:11 -0700
Subject: Brit car video surveillance out of control
Message-ID: <3B24FAFA.412110D@hq.org>
DAILY MAIL (London) June 11, 2001 LENGTH: 705 words A SPEED CAMERA ON
EVERY CORNER
DAILY MAIL (London)
June 12, 2001
POLICE WILL ISSUE UP TO TEN MILLION TICKETS A YEAR IN A MASSIVE
CLAMPDOWN ON SPEEDING MOTORISTS. WITH THE
NUMBER OF SPEED CAMERAS EXPECTED TO TREBLE, THERE WILL be no escape from
the prying electronic eyes.
For the police, it will mean a gold-mine in fines thanks to the decision
to allow forces to keep money
raised from fixed penalties. Until now, many of the 4,300 cameras across
the country have been
ineffective because police cannot afford to stock or process the film.
But the potential to raise revenue has given them a powerful incentive
to extend and improve the network.
This means any driver 'flashed' by a camera will now almost certainly
face a fine.
The speeding clampdown comes as the latest crime figures show a
year-on-year rise of 2.5 per cent in
violent offences including murder, rape and muggings.
Yesterday, motoring groups claimed the blitz would undermine public
confidence in police priorities.
As well as alienating drivers already burdened by high fuel taxes and
rising crime, more cameras would
never be as effective as patrol cars in preventing truly dangerous
driving, they said. Police, however,
are delighted with the prospect of more cameras on the roads.
Some areas involved in trial schemes have seen 25-fold increases in the
number of tickets issued to
drivers.
If these results are reflected across the country, the number of
penalties issued via roadside cameras
could soar from 550,000 in 1999 to more than ten million.
North Wales chief constable Richard Brun-strom, who leads the
Association of Chief Police Officers'
traffic technology committee is keen to see more cameras on the roads.
'Speed cameras make a major contribution to road safety and this
legislation means motorists can expect
to see at least a tripling in the numbers on Britain's roads,' he said.
Under new Home Office rules, money raised by fines will no longer go
straight to the Treasury.
Instead, police will be allowed to keep fixed penalty revenue above a
'baseline' figure. Almost all the
43 forces in England and Wales are submitting business plans to the
Government to show how they will use
the extra money.
The standard penalty increased last year from GBP 40 to GBP 60, and m
Edmund King of the RAC Foundation said: 'The danger is that speed
cameras actually lead to our roads
being under-policed.
'With an over-reliance on speed cameras, forces have been cutting back
on traffic police.
'In some areas there is little or no chance of being stopped for
dangerous or careless driving, which is
often more dangerous than speeding.
'Only around a third of accidents are blamed on speed.
'Cameras don't pick up on drivers tailgating the car in front, or
swerving between lanes.
'Home Office research revealed a 60 per cent chance of dangerous drivers
having committed other criminal
offences.
'Those stopped may have burgled goods in the car, for example. Cameras
won't clear up any of those other
crimes.
'We are already seeing cameras being extended beyond accident blackspots
to straight stretches of rural
road in places like Oxfordshire.
'If that trend continues there is the danger we will see speed cameras
on every bend in every trunk road.
'We don't believe that is something motorists want to see, and nor do
we.'
Yesterday, Home Secretary David Blunkett signalled his determination not
to let the new financial rules
distract police from their core purpose of fighting crime.
A source close to Mr Blunkett said: 'Road safety is important, but we
don't want to see manpower diverted
to running speed cameras.
'The cameras are a valuable tool but we have to strike a balance.'
From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jun 11 07:08:19 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:08:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ORBS sucked into a black hole!
Message-ID: <200106111408.KAA09170@www7.aa.psiweb.com>
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/06/08/orbs/print.html
#
# A spam cop goes AWOL
#
# The ORBS blacklist, a controversial tool for stopping unsolicited
# e-mail, is suddenly inaccessible.
#
# - - - - - - - - - - - -
#
# By Damien Cave
#
# June 8, 2001 | Spam fighters all over the world have lost a
# controversial weapon in the battle against unsolicited e-mail.
# Since June 1, the Web site for ORBS -- the Open Relay Behavior
# Modification System -- has been gutted. Visitors to the site
# now find nothing more than a gray blank page and a simple message:
# "Due to circumstances beyond our control, the ORBS website is
# no longer available."
#
# ORBS's main service was a blacklist of Internet mail servers
# -- computers capable of routing mail across the Net -- that the
# ORBS administrator, Alan Brown, had identified as potentially
# capable of forwarding spam. Now that blacklist is no longer
# available to network administrators, and they want to know why.
# One popular theory mooted on the Net is that Brown closed down
# the site rather than comply with a New Zealand court order
# demanding that he remove two specific ISPs from the blacklist.
# But Brown, who lives in New Zealand, is keeping silent. "I am
# unable to answer any of your questions," he writes in an e-mail.
# "Sorry."
#
# Even without an explanation, the demise of ORBS is significant,
# stirring up, once again, an ongoing worldwide debate over how
# best to administer the Internet and mediate the Net's intersection
# of humanity and technology. Questions about ORBS's behavior always
# centered on the problem of how to handle e-mail abuse. But more
# generally, ORBS symbolized the ongoing struggle between the Net's
# tendency to encourage individual freedom and the necessity of
# combating anarchy.
#
# Ever since the Net moved beyond its roots as a small, open,
# academic community, users have attempted to balance opposing
# forces. Most favor the right to speak out, along with the right
# to privacy; they rail against censorship, but at the same time
# desperately seek the ability to censor unsolicited e-mail by
# limiting spammers' access to their networks.
#
# ORBS supporters say the blacklist was a fully justified form
# of preventive medicine. Brown saw his mission as identifying
# every mail server on the Net that allowed "open relays" -- in
# essence, that permitted the forwarding of mail from one point
# on the Net to another without any restriction. Spammers love
# open relays; they employ them to hide their identities and funnel
# out massive amounts of e-mail for free. But at the same time
# the open relays bog down the system for other customers.
#
# Brown used simple software agents and diagnostic probes to comb
# the Internet, looking for mail servers configured for open
# relaying. Whenever he found one, Brown would post the Internet
# protocol (IP) address on his list -- even if the address had
# never been used by a spammer. ISPs, systems administrators and
# everyday citizens who configured their computers to block
# addresses listed on ORBS could then close off a spammer's favorite
# distribution tool even before the spammer knew it existed.
#
# More controversial, Brown also placed on his list servers that
# blocked his probes, whether or not he could ascertain if they
# had open relays. ORBS supporters say such a policy was the only
# way to keep a flood of open-relay-capable servers from pumping
# spam across the Net. The end, they argue, justified the means.
#
# The immediate impact of the ORBS shutdown could mean more spam,
# says Michael LeFevre, a London technology company executive.
# "I've received four spams since ORBS went down last week," he
# says. "I only received two or three previous to that this year."
#
# But not everyone is sorry to see the site go. ORBS has plenty
# of critics. ORBS wasn't just a useful technology, they say; it
# was also a tool used by a specific person, Alan Brown, an
# overzealous spam fighter who went too far. ORBS's own ISP pulled
# the plug on Brown in 1998 after receiving complaints about the
# way that Brown used probes to test servers for open relays.
# Although another ISP agreed to host ORBS soon afterward, Brown's
# detractors say that he never learned his lesson: He repeatedly
# insisted that he had the right to test servers as often as he
# wanted.
#
# "Alan Brown created some nice technology -- nobody faults him
# on that point," says Tom Geller, founder of Suespammers.org,
# a nonprofit group that lobbies for strict spam legislation. "But
# he used it in an irresponsible way, invading others' private
# networks and using others' resources against their stated wishes."
# He became a living contradiction -- a man who, says Geller, "used
# others' network resources to prove that it's wrong to use others'
# network resources."
#
# Before the scourge of spam, the Net was a less contentious place.
# Until the early '90s, open relays were not uncommon. In fact,
# they were the norm.
#
# "I remember when you'd get funny looks for running a mail server
# that wasn't an open relay," says "Der Mouse," a Canadian
# spam-fighting veteran who refused to give his off-line name.
# "I remember when there was a machine on the Net that was
# advertised as having no password on its administrative log-in.
# Want a guest log-in? Log in and create yourself one. I remember
# when the Net was a friendly and civilized place."
#
# "Today it is more of an armed camp, suspicious of everyone,"
# he continues in an e-mail. "The Net I knew and loved is dead,
# killed by uncivilized greedy incompetents who came barging in,
# without caring that when you barge into a foreign culture it
# behooves you to learn how they do things. This would not have
# been a problem, except that they arrived in sufficient numbers
# to overload the mechanisms that normally would have either brought
# newcomers up to speed on the culture or rejected them; as a result
# they killed off the culture we had, the only culture I've ever
# seen work based on mutual friendship and helpfulness on a large
# scale."
#
# Spam signified the death of the original Net culture, Der Mouse
# and others argue. By the mid-'90s, systems administrators started
# fighting it by closing off open relays. Shutting the pipes made
# it harder for, say, employees of a company to log on to their
# corporate network from home, but by limiting who could use the
# network, closed relays also kept spammers out. This, in turn,
# saved companies and individuals money, since open relays
# essentially let anyone borrow servers and bandwidth without having
# to pay for them.
#
# But some network administrators moved slower than others. So
# ORBS appeared, with a mission to move them along. At first, most
# people on the Net welcomed the service. Open relays were sometimes
# hard to find, and ORBS worked more quickly than other
# spam-fighting lists. The Mail Abuse Prevention System's Realtime
# Blackhole List, for example, acts like an after-the-fact plug.
# Its main list contains domain names that spam has already been
# sent from, and MAPS only adds servers to its list after the system
# administrator of the offending mail server has been given a chance
# to close the hole but hasn't done it.
#
# ORBS, on the other hand, "tested relays and listed them
# immediately," says William James, a computer consultant in
# Mississippi. "No negotiation, no notice. It was fast. Someone
# running an open relay ran the risk of losing a substantial amount
# of traffic without any notice."
#
# Over time, however, Brown's pace and intensity started alienating
# the very people who sympathized with his cause. John Oliver,
# a systems administrator in San Diego, remembers butting heads
# with Brown in early 1999. ORBS probes invaded his servers and
# tested them for 45 minutes, over and over again. The probes
# returned and retested a few days or weeks later, "as often and
# as frequently as they saw fit," Oliver says.
#
# Each day that the tests ran, Oliver's server logs lengthened.
# He received pages and pages of server activity that directly
# resulted from Brown's tests. "It was annoying because since I
# wasn't running an open relay, it was wasting my time," he says.
# "And, of course, I didn't appreciate the implicit accusation
# that I was an irresponsible admin."
#
# Brown regularly tested servers without any evidence of wrongdoing,
# says Der Mouse. "Let me be precise: He repeatedly 'tested' my
# home mail server, and if he had any reason to think it had ever
# relayed spam, he steadfastly refused to produce it," he says.
# "He also repeatedly did so after I explicitly denied him
# permission to do so."
#
# MAPS also had a run-in with ORBS. In 1999, MAPS listed ORBS on
# its Realtime Blackhole List, in response to several complaints
# about the way that ORBS was supposedly abusing networks. The
# group removed ORBS and stopped blocking it from its own servers
# three months later, but not before ORBS threw MAPS into its own
# black hole. Even Suespammers.org found itself blocked over a
# dispute with ORBS. Until the day the list died, spam fighters
# who used Brown's list couldn't access the Suespammers site, a
# major resource that might have helped them in their war on
# unsolicited e-mail.
#
# "Alan's problem is that he was so convinced that testing was
# necessary that he felt that anyone who didn't want him testing
# their systems, as often as he wanted to, was somehow just as
# bad as an actual open relay," says Peter Seebach, a systems
# administrator who subscribes to several spam-fighting mailing
# lists. "This is where I drew the line; without any spam coming
# through a system, and with the admin's request that he not test
# it, he had no business hitting systems over and over again. I
# don't see a meaningful distinction between what he did and what
# script kiddies do with root scripts" that attempt to break into
# a system.
#
# Is what ORBS did really so bad? In essence, ORBS was nothing
# more than a list of servers that Brown checked and decided to
# block from connecting with his network -- which is one suggested
# recipe for spam fighting. Doesn't Brown have the right to protect
# his network by blocking whomever he wants to? Doesn't he have
# the right to publish a list of whom he's blocking?
#
# People who rail against Brown are ignoring the implications of
# their argument, says "Afterburner," manager of the e-mail abuse
# department for a large ISP. ORBS may have been run "in a
# particularly unethical way," he says, but that doesn't mean that
# Brown should be silenced.
#
# Rather, everyone should have "the unfettered right to publish"
# a blacklist, regardless of how it is organized, he says. Probes
# don't damage a network, and "nobody is required to use your list
# if they don't want to," he says. "The situation is somewhat
# analogous to the idealized free market: If you put out a list
# that's worth using, people will use it. If you put out a list
# that is not worth using, people will not use it."
#
# But ORBS doesn't quite fit Afterburner's paraphrase of the
# libertarian ideal. The list was worth using; blocking the servers
# ORBS listed cut down on spam. Yet those who used the list as
# a tool against unwanted e-mail didn't necessarily have to pay
# the costs, which came in the form of ORBS's probes. In other
# words, Brown's approach looks a lot like a spammer's: He invaded
# others' networks without consent, offering benefits without costs.
#
# Even worse, critics argue, Brown went one step further, blocking
# servers that didn't have open relays, and adding them to a list
# that he knew would keep traffic from them. There is, for example,
# the Xtra Mail lawsuit in New Zealand, which Brown's critics say
# was a direct result of Brown's unethical practices.
#
# Essentially, Brown added Actrix and Xtra Mail's servers to his
# blacklist after they blocked his probes. He reportedly had no
# evidence that they used open relays. Actrix and Xtra Mail sued,
# and on May 24 they won. The New Zealand High Court ordered Brown
# to remove Xtra Mail's servers from the ORBS database.
#
# Brown then said that he would comply, but he remained unrepentant.
# "ORBS policy is that if you threaten ORBS you'll be manually
# listed," he said, according to a story in IDG New Zealand.
# "Telecom [Actrix and Xtra Mail's parent company] threatened me
# with legal action for two years."
#
# Those who have tangled with Brown aren't surprised at his stance.
# And they don't have a problem with his philosophy, or with his
# argument that he has a right to form a policy and block whomever
# he wants. They argue, however, that the policy has to be carried
# out with honesty.
#
# "The list wasn't what it was purported to be," says Oliver, of
# San Diego. "If you employ a list called the Open Relay Behavior
# Modification System to protect your server from spam, you expect
# that list to block open relays and nothing else. But that isn't
# what you got with ORBS. You got open relays blocked as well as
# anyone who had attracted the personal enmity of Mr. Brown."
#
# Ultimately, Oliver says, the Net should be glad to see ORBS go
# because it lacked the basic values of the old Internet -- truth,
# respect and freedom. "It's extremely dangerous to support the
# use of a tool when the cost for its use includes the loss of
# a liberty," he says.
#
# Still, many of Brown's critics argue that ORBS's technology
# shouldn't go to waste. The list is already mirrored on at least
# one site, and some predict that another administrator -- someone
# with a bit more restraint -- will clean it up and maintain it.
# If he or she does, perhaps that individual, and other
# technologists, will learn from Brown's mistakes, says Geller
# at Suespammers.org.
#
# "Any technical endeavor that ignores social aspects is doomed
# to failure," he says. "It's like making soup without liquid."
From petro at bounty.org Mon Jun 11 10:16:50 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:16:50 -0700
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To: <008501c0f242$1ef8f790$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
References: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
<91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
<3.0.6.32.20010610193321.0080ddd0@pop.sprynet.com>
<008501c0f242$1ef8f790$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
Message-ID:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "petro"
>To:
>Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 10:19 PM
>Subject: RE: Automatic's
>
>
>> That *WILL* cause the target to collapse with anything over a
>> .22LR, and if you get an eye will 100% guarenteed stop the fight
>> (with that individual) now. Only one person has survived a shot (by a
>> firearm) to the eye, and she's been on life support since she was hit
>> by a .22.
>
>Where did this statistic come from? I find it fairly hard to believe....
Someone who is a member of the Wound Ballistics Association,
a SWAT member and instructor.
It's not hard to believe when you think about it, the skull
in that area is trivially thin, so even a .22 can punch through the
eye and get back to the important stuff.
--
--
http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html
It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so
afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such
knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense.
From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Mon Jun 11 10:19:57 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:19:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Final Score - McVeigh: 168 Feds: 1
Message-ID: <200106111719.f5BHJv514675@artifact.psychedelic.net>
As I was watching the coverage of the Tim McVeigh execution, I couldn't
help think that it was bigger than the coverage of the moon landing in
1969.
How the definition of what unites us as a nation has changed since then.
Technological excellence, versus an absolute exercise of unbridled state
power against a single unarmed individual, who no longer poses a threat to
anyone.
While most of us would define "terrorism" as violence against civilians
and civilian infrastructure for the purpose of sending a political
message, the US government cleverly defines it as any violence by a
subnational group designed to influence opinion.
Thus, in the minds of our government, it is not killing that is wrong, it
is presuming to do so without the Imprimatur of statehood, and the power
to defiantly thumb ones nose at the logical consequences of ones actions.
Tim McVeigh's crime then becomes not "murder," but "impersonating a
government."
I can forgve him for that.
Tim McVeigh's legacy is that it's going to be a *real* long time before
the Federal Government again attacks its citizens with tanks and snipers
for simply saying "no" to a government official, and the term "collateral
damage" is never going to be smugly used again to describe dead children
killed by the American military in some country on the receiving end of a
"message" from our President.
I think that's a GoodThing(tm).
History should remember Tim McVeigh as a decorated Gulf War veteran, who
gave his life to save his country, albeit in a rather creative and not
universally appreciated way.
I can forgive him for that too.
--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jun 11 07:29:16 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:29:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: The credentialling of golfers
Message-ID: <200106111429.KAA25285@www1.aa.psiweb.com>
http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB992206849169968858.htm
#
# June 11, 2001
#
# In Germany, Golfers Endure Tests Before Earning a License to
# Drive
#
# By NEAL E. BOUDETTE Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
#
# ST. LEON-ROT, Germany -- To play golf, you need practice, patience
# and perseverance.
#
# To play golf in Germany, you might need a quick trip to Austria,
# or a color photocopier.
#
# That's because the average duffer can't tee up in Germany without
# a golf license, and getting one isn't a gimme.
#
# You have to pass driving, chipping and putting tests, and play
# 18 holes with no more than 108 strokes -- a stretch for a
# beginner. The whole process, including lessons, can cost around
# 2,000 marks ($870). Then there is a quiz on the rules and
# etiquette of golf.
#
# "A written test?" Tiger Woods laughed before playing in the
# Deutsche Bank-SAP Open near Heidelberg, Germany, in late May.
# The world's No. 1 player has made plenty of tough shots in his
# career, but he said he has never had to master multiple-choice
# questions about water hazards. "That's why we have officials,"
# he said.
#
# A Need for Ripeness
#
# Golf has taken off in Germany in recent years, drawing many new
# players who bristle at the idea of having to qualify for the
# license, known as a Platzreife. The term, which combines the
# German words for "place" and "ripe," indicates that a player
# is ripe enough to get a place on a German course.
[snip]
From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jun 11 07:29:19 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:29:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: The credentialling of golfers
Message-ID: <200106111429.KAA06677@www3.aa.psiweb.com>
http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB992206849169968858.htm
#
# June 11, 2001
#
# In Germany, Golfers Endure Tests Before Earning a License to
# Drive
#
# By NEAL E. BOUDETTE Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
#
# ST. LEON-ROT, Germany -- To play golf, you need practice, patience
# and perseverance.
#
# To play golf in Germany, you might need a quick trip to Austria,
# or a color photocopier.
#
# That's because the average duffer can't tee up in Germany without
# a golf license, and getting one isn't a gimme.
#
# You have to pass driving, chipping and putting tests, and play
# 18 holes with no more than 108 strokes -- a stretch for a
# beginner. The whole process, including lessons, can cost around
# 2,000 marks ($870). Then there is a quiz on the rules and
# etiquette of golf.
#
# "A written test?" Tiger Woods laughed before playing in the
# Deutsche Bank-SAP Open near Heidelberg, Germany, in late May.
# The world's No. 1 player has made plenty of tough shots in his
# career, but he said he has never had to master multiple-choice
# questions about water hazards. "That's why we have officials,"
# he said.
#
# A Need for Ripeness
#
# Golf has taken off in Germany in recent years, drawing many new
# players who bristle at the idea of having to qualify for the
# license, known as a Platzreife. The term, which combines the
# German words for "place" and "ripe," indicates that a player
# is ripe enough to get a place on a German course.
[snip]
From georgemw at speakeasy.net Mon Jun 11 10:39:53 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:39:53 -0700
Subject: Automatics
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010610193321.0080ddd0@pop.sprynet.com>
References:
Message-ID: <3B249FF9.23536.13E15246@localhost>
On 10 Jun 2001, at 19:33, David Honig wrote:
> Well said, but:
> In _The Irish War_ there's a description of IRA improvised recoilless
> 'rifles' which, like their .mil-industrial analogues, toss an equal
> mass out the back end.
They'll actually deliver more energy to the target if MORE mass
goes out the back than the front. I can't see any particular
advantage to the masses being equal.
> The reacting countermass is a bunch of flakes
> which dissipate the KE against the atmosphere.
>
This is a particularly efficient design for cypherpunks,
since we've got plenty of extra flakes!
George
>
From alqaeda at hq.org Mon Jun 11 11:04:42 2001
From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:04:42 -0700
Subject: Ben and Jerry's new Militia Mint ice cream
Message-ID: <3B25083A.F72AE56D@hq.org>
"Timothy McVeigh downed a couple of
pints of mint chocolate-chip ice cream"
So when do Ben & Jerry come out with "ANFO Chip"?
Militia Mint? Waco Whirl? Ruby Ridge Sorbet?
or a "Baked Davidians" kit including brandy & a lighter?
From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Mon Jun 11 08:08:56 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:08:56 -0400
Subject: "This Is Your Brain On Cow"
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610171229.02edaec0@flex.com>; from reeza@flex.com on Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 05:14:38PM -1000
References: <20010610140941.A212@ils.unc.edu> <5.0.2.1.0.20010610132418.00ab7d20@mail.well.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010610132418.00ab7d20@mail.well.com> <3.0.6.32.20010610185938.00808720@pop.sprynet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010610171229.02edaec0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <20010611110856.D537@ils.unc.edu>
On Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 05:14:38PM -1000, Reese wrote:
> At 03:59 PM 6/10/01, David Honig wrote:
> >At 02:09 PM 6/10/01 -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
> >>This is because there are strict US FDA regulations concerning the use
> >>of infected beef in restaraunts, but they have little to say about
> >>what individuals in private homes eat.
Um, I do know how to spell "restaurants", just not how to tpye.
> >
> >Indeed there's been a few cases of something like BSE in Americans
> >who've eaten elk and / or deer. But since the infected aren't fed
> >back into the population, there's no way for it to spread. (E.g.,
> >if it arises spontaneously now and then.)
>
> I'm on the Pro-Med list and if there were any positive link between
> eating BSE-infected deer or elk, they'd be talking about it there.
> They aren't. Currently, there is only a recommendation that hunters
> not eat brains or spinal cords.
>
> What is it you know or think you know, that they do not?
I presume Reese knows a joke (mine) when he sees one, and is just
looking for info about deer & elk. This is a story I've
heard about in several forums, including a radio show (maybe
Pacifica News, I'm not sure).
Go to www.google.com and query "bse elk deer" and you'll get
several hits covering this topic. Whether it constitutes a
"positive link" is for you to decide.
I think Project Censored (www.projectcensored.org) did a story about
this, too. The bottom line in several of these stories is that BSE
*is* in the wild in the U.S., contrary to what Big Money (in this
case, beef producers, McDonalds, etc.) would have us believe.
Whether BSE is in US cows or elsewhere in the non-hunter human food
chain is something I haven't heard about, but it's fair to guess that
this is the type of information that would be supressed by the powers
that be.
All the more good reason to go vegan...
http://www.reed.edu/~zeke/vegan/faq/vegan-l.FAQ.html
-- Greg
From fscott at carolina.rr.com Mon Jun 11 08:14:05 2001
From: fscott at carolina.rr.com (Frank Scott)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:14:05 -0400
Subject: For V.P. Bus Development
Message-ID: <75262001611115145700@carolina.rr.com>
Frank Scott
Director-Business Development
(704) 549 1171
(704) 503-3030
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From fscott at carolina.rr.com Mon Jun 11 08:14:07 2001
From: fscott at carolina.rr.com (Frank Scott)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:14:07 -0400
Subject: For V.P. Bus Development
Message-ID: <82692001611115147730@carolina.rr.com>
Frank Scott
Director-Business Development
(704) 549 1171
(704) 503-3030
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From alqaeda at hq.org Mon Jun 11 11:23:07 2001
From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:23:07 -0700
Subject: Bring a water-mister or aluminized umbrella to the next WTO fun....
(more on nonlethal radar weapon)
Message-ID: <3B250C8B.3C535482@hq.org>
11 June 2001
Millimeter-wave energy to be
used in a weapon
By Peter Clarke
EE Times
June 6, 2001 (5:39 p.m. EST)
LONDON Stories of the soldiers who
operate the Arctic radar stations and stand
in front of the transmitter to get warm will
surely be repeated now that the U.S.
Department of Defense has gone public with
plans to use the heating effect of millimeter
waves within a weapon.
The U.S. Marine Corps says it has developed
a 95-GHz system as an antipersonnel "heat
ray" and is conducting tests on animals and
volunteers.
The supposedly nonlethal weapon, called
"active-denial technology," has been in the
works for the last 10 years at the Air Force
Research Laboratory (Kirtland, N.M.), in
tandem with the Marine Corps' Joint
Non-lethal Weapons Directorate. About $40
million has been spent developing the
weapon, according to the Air Force Research
Laboratory (AFRL), although it could be
nearly another decade before it is used in
conflict. The earliest estimate for deployment
is 2009.
The system includes a millimeter-wave
energy source with waveguides to direct the
energy to a dish antenna measuring about 3
x 3 meters, which forms a beam that can be
swept across a battlefield or hostile crowd.
The aim is to deter or drive off adversaries
caught out in the open with a beam that
inflicts pain without causing permanent
damage.
According to an AFRL fact sheet, the 95-GHz
energy penetrates 1/64 inch into the skin
and produces an intense burning sensation
that stops when the transmitter is switched
off or when the individual moves out of the
beam.
Top skin layer takes heat
"It works by heating the water molecules in
the top 1/64-of-an-inch layer of the skin,"
said Marine Corps spokesman Maj. David
Andersen.
According to reports, a 2-second burst from
the system can heat the skin to a
temperature of 130° F. Elsewhere, the AFRL
describes the sensation as similar to
touching an ordinary light bulb that has
been left on for a while. "Unlike a light bulb,
however," says the AFRL fact sheet,
"active-denial technology will not cause
rapid burning, because of the shallow
penetration of the beam and the low levels
of energy used."
Beam size, whether it is a convergent,
focused beam or a divergent beam, and its
range are all classified information.
"This is a beam that is going to be directed.
It's not harmful to internal organs because it
doesn't penetrate the skin beyond 1/64 of an
inch," said Conrad Dziewulski, a spokesman
for the directed-energy division of AFRL. "It
will be swept across the battlefield or
directed at an individual for a few seconds."
Dziewulski said the system was intended to
protect military personnel against
small-arms fire, which is generally taken to
mean a range of 1,000 meters. Elsewhere,
the system is described as having a range of
700 yards.
While early tests have been carried out using
a fixed antenna, the military now plans to
develop a mobile version of the system,
otherwise known as Vehicle Mounted Active
Denial System, or Vmads.
AFRL said Vmads could be mounted on a
High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle
(more commonly referred to as a Humvee).
Later it could be mounted on other vehicles
such as aircraft, helicopters and ships,
officials said.
However, countermeasures against the
weapon could be quite straightforward for
example covering up the body with thick
clothes or carrying a metallic sheet or
even a trash can lid as a shield or
reflector. Also unclear is how the
active-denial technology would work in rainy,
foggy or sea-spray conditions where the
beam's energy could be absorbed by water
in the atmosphere.
The technology was developed by two Air
Force Research Laboratory teams: one from
the laboratory's Directed Energy Directorate
at Kirtland Air Force Base, and the other
from the Human Effectiveness Directorate at
Brooks Air Force Base, Texas.
The Air Force's Electronic Systems Center at
Hanscom Air Force Base, Mass., will manage
acquisition of the Humvee Vmads system.
From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jun 11 08:25:19 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:25:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SCOTUS rulz!
Message-ID: <200106111525.LAA14271@www7.aa.psiweb.com>
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Scotus-Heat-Detector.html
#
# June 11, 2001
#
# Court Rules Against Heat-Sensor Searches
#
# Filed at 11:03 a.m. ET
#
# WASHINGTON (AP) -- Police violate the Constitution if they use
# a heat-sensing device to peer inside a home without a search
# warrant, the Supreme Court ruled Monday.
#
# An unusual lineup of five justices voted to bolster the Fourth
# Amendment's protection against unreasonable searches and threw
# out an Oregon man's conviction for growing marijuana.
#
# Monday's ruling reversed a lower court decision that said
# officers' use of a heat-sensing device was not a search of Danny
# Lee Kyllo's home and therefore they did not need a search warrant.
#
# In an opinion written by Justice Antonin Scalia, by many measures
# the most conservative member of the court, the majority found
# that the heat detector allowed police to see things they otherwise
# could not.
#
# ``Where, as here, the government uses a device that is not in
# general public use to explore details of the home that would
# previously have been unknowable without physical intrusion, the
# surveillance is a 'search' and is presumptively unreasonable
# without a warrant,'' Scalia wrote.
#
# While the court has previously approved some warrantless searches,
# this one did not meet tests the court has previously set, Scalia
# wrote.
#
# The decision means the information police gathered with the
# thermal device -- namely a suspicious pattern of hot spots on
# the home's exterior walls -- cannot be used against Kyllo.
#
# The court sent the case back to lower courts to determine whether
# police have enough other basis to support the search warrant
# that was eventually served on Kyllo, and thus whether any of
# the evidence inside his home can be used against him.
#
# Justices Clarence Thomas, David H. Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg
# and Stephen Breyer joined the majority.
#
# Justice John Paul Stevens wrote a dissenting opinion joined by
# Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, and Justices Sandra Day
# O'Connor and Anthony M. Kennedy.
From measl at mfn.org Mon Jun 11 09:35:50 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:35:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: ORBS sucked into a black hole!
In-Reply-To: <200106111408.KAA09170@www7.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID:
On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote:
> Subject: CDR: ORBS sucked into a black hole!
>
> http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/06/08/orbs/print.html
About Fucking Time!
I'm just amazed that it lasted as long as it did afrter it was forced to
flle Canada for New Zealand.
These assholes should be on one of Jim Bells mythical auction lists...
--
Yours,
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org
If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From rsw at MIT.EDU Mon Jun 11 08:47:49 2001
From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:47:49 -0400
Subject: ORBS sucked into a black hole!
In-Reply-To: <200106111408.KAA09170@www7.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@Orwellian.Org on Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:08:19AM -0400
References: <200106111408.KAA09170@www7.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <20010611114749.A18696@positron.mit.edu>
George at Orwellian.Org wrote:
> # One popular theory mooted on the Net is that Brown closed down
> # the site rather than comply with a New Zealand court order
> # demanding that he remove two specific ISPs from the blacklist.
I know I sound naive asking this, but has something like this ever
happened in the US?
The way I read this, the NZ court ordered a private publisher of an
enumeration of IP addresses to modify his publication despite the fact
that the IP addresses in question met the criteria for inclusion on
the list. (ORBS claimed to be a list of open relays, but it was well
known that it included any network that blocked ORBS probes, which
apparently included the two companies in question.) In addition, even
if it did include networks that didn't fit the stated criteria for
inclusion on the list, it seems to me that the circumstances under
which a particular entry is added to the list are completely
immaterial---for any particular entry on the list, its inclusion only
indicates that the ORBS administrators are not adequately assured that
spam will not originate from the IP address in quesiton. Doesn't seem
like that could possibly be considered libel.
One might be able to make the case that being listed in ORBS was
damaging in that outgoing email from a listed system would be blocked
by lots of people, but that doesn't seem compelling---people are
_choosing_ to block traffic from your server based on the fact that
they trust the recommendations of ORBS and, according to ORBS, it
cannot be ascertained that spam will not originate from the system.
Like I said, I'm probably just naive.
--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002
5105
From jya at pipeline.com Mon Jun 11 12:00:07 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:00:07 -0700
Subject: Pap Smear
Message-ID: <200106111600.MAA29162@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
The NY Times reports today on a leering virus which searches
the Web for machines which might contain porno material,
real or imagined as the virus decides, and then the little shit
fingers the machine to one of various law enforcement
agencies in its database. (Excerpt below)
Anybody had this leerer rat their cave or know of a victim?
-----
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/11/technology/11VIRU.html
June 11, 2001
Virus Searches for Pornography
By Roy Furchgott
A new rogue computer program, possibly intended to perform
a public service, has raised thorny legal questions and seems
sure to fuel the debate over computer privacy.
The new virus, which is called VBS.Noped.a, searches the
target's machine for what it suspects may be child pornography
and reports the names of files to the police. There are no
reports of police officials acting on such results, and antivirus
software companies say it has not yet been distributed widely
and is at relatively low risk of damaging computers.
Technically a worm, the virus is of unknown origin and was
spotted by computer security companies on May 22. It arrives
as an attachment to an e-mail message titled, "FWD: Help us ALL
to END ILLEGAL child porn NOW." When a recipient opens the
attachment, child pornography statutes appear on screen. The
program then searches the user's hard drive for picture files
that have pornographic-sounding names and then sends an e-mail
message and a list of suspect files to a law enforcement agency
picked at random from the program's database.
"Hi," the message sent to the police says: "This is Antipedo2001.
I have found a PC with known child pornography files on the hard
drive. I have included a listing below and included a sample for
your convenience."
The virus also sends out copies of itself to addresses in the
victim's e-mail address book.
Apart from the program's invasive nature, virus experts question
the results the program sends out.
Its search software is apt to falsely identify files as containing
child pornography, said Stephen Trilling, director of research at
the Symantec Anti-Virus Research Center in Santa Monica, Calif.,
which suggests that the results could cause irreparable harm to
run-of-the-mill computer owners if the results are acted upon.
While law enforcement agencies cannot search an individual's computer
without a warrant, they can act on a tip. The F.B.I., one of the agencies
on the Noped list, would not say if it had received tips from this virus
program. A Justice Department lawyer said that law enforcement
officials could legally conduct a search based on the tip, but added,
"That's a very different question from `would law enforcement ever
open an investigation based on that information?' "
Perhaps most troubling, legal experts say, is the havoc that the virus
could wreak on the reputation of people with no involvement in child
pornography.
"There is no telling how far this information might spread," said
Stephen J. Davidson, a lawyer and spokesman for the Computer
Law Association. Local news organizations could report that a
parent was under investigation as a pedophile, he said, "all
resulting from an unwarranted and illegal entry to your private
computer."
...
From gbroiles at well.com Mon Jun 11 12:13:14 2001
From: gbroiles at well.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:13:14 -0700
Subject: Social Security Numbers and health insurance
In-Reply-To: <20010611034701.26587.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010611120236.00aaa980@mail.wwc.com>
At 03:47 AM 6/11/2001 +0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
>I need to sign up for health insurance tomorrow. I'm going to buy
>individual coverage from Kaiser. On their form, it asks for an SSN,
>of course.
>
>Well, Kaiser is not a government agency, and is certainly not
>associated with the Social Security Adminisrtation in any way, so they
>have no legitimate need for my SSN, and I don't want to give it to
>them. I'm wondering how best to go about doing this:
I've had pretty good luck, when dealing with private and some governmental
organizations, with the following -
"I don't give out my SSN for privacy reasons."
sometimes adding, "Could you assign me a new number to use within your
organization?" or "I have a nine digit number I use instead of an SSN, can
I use that instead?"
In particular, the latter is helpful where the person I'm talking to
doesn't personally care what they enter, but the computer system or local
policy is that a nine-digit number MUST be entered (or used as a database
key), and they're not allowed to just make up numbers themselves. We can
complete the transaction - I haven't lied nor committed fraud, they're not
in trouble with their boss, and everyone's happy.
There's no particular reason the nine-digit number you supply needs to be
the same when you deal with different organizations, so you're limiting
their ability to cross-link databases using that field. If they've got full
name, date of birth, and address, they probably don't need an SSN to
cross-link, it just saves some programmer and computer time.
Kaiser assigns an internal "member number" which isn't your SSN for use
within their system - but that's no reason to give them the SSN in the
first place.
--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles at well.com
"Organized crime is the price we pay for organization." -- Raymond Chandler
From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Mon Jun 11 12:15:23 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:15:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Statement from McVeigh's Attorney
Message-ID: <200106111915.f5BJFOh14818@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Statement of Robert Nigh, attorney, on the occasion of the execution of
his client, Timothy McVeigh.
-----
At 7 a.m. this morning, we killed Tim McVeigh, the person responsible for
the Oklahoma City bombing. But we did much more than that. We also killed
Sergeant McVeigh, the young man who joined the Army because he wanted to
serve his country; the young soldier that was so dedicated to his duty
that he became the top gunner in this battalion of 100.
He was the young man who took up arms on his country's behalf and traveled
half-way across the world to meet and engage our enemy. He placed his own
life in jeopardy because we asked him to and because he thought it was his
duty to do so.
His actions were of such character that he was awarded the Bronze Star
with designation of valor.
But much more importantly than any of that, what we did this morning was
to kill Tim McVeigh, friend to Bob Popovic, Allen Smith and Elizabeth
McDermott. We killed Bill and Mickey's son this morning. And we killed
Jennifer McVeigh's big brother.
Of course, we can say that it was Tim himself that caused their pain.
And we would be half-right. But it would be a lie to say that we did not
double their pain and that we are not responsible, because there is a
reasonable way to deal with crime that doesn't involve killing another
human being.
Although we might not express it in these terms because we know better, we
might say that these people are simply collateral damage, but we know too
well that there is no such thing as collateral damage. There are only real
people with faces and names and loved ones who may never heal because of
our actions, and that is true whether their grief was inflicted by Tim
McVeigh or by federal law enforcement or by us collectively.
To the survivors in Oklahoma City who have had the courage to come out
against capital punish in spite of the tremendous pain that they have
suffered, I say thank you. To the victims in Oklahoma City, I say that I
am sorry that I could not successfully help Tim to express words of
reconciliation that he did not perceive to be dishonest. I do not fault
them at all for looking forward to this day or for taking some sense of
relief from it. But if killing Tim McVeigh does not bring peace or closure
to them, I suggest to you that it is our fault. We have told them that we
would help them heal their wounds in this way.
We have taken it upon ourselves to promise to extract vengeance for them.
We have made killing a part of the healing process. In order to do that we
use such terms as reasoned moral response, but I submit there's nothing
reasonable or moral about what we have done today. That is true when
killing a human being even means killing Tim McVeigh.
There was a time when we recognized this in our country. In 1972, the
Supreme Court of the United States struck down the death penalty as it
existed at the time. In its concurring opinion in Furman v. Georgia,
Justice Marshall wrote, ''The measure of a country's greatness is its
ability to retain compassion in time of crisis.
''This is a country that stands tallest in troubled times; a country that
clings to fundamental principles, cherishes its constitutional heritage
and rejects simple solutions that compromise the values that lie at the
roots of our democratic system. In striking down capital punishment, this
court does not malign our system of government; on the contrary, it pays
homage to it. In recognizing the humanity of our fellow beings, we pay
ourselves the highest tribute. We achieve a major milestone in the long
road from barbarism and join the approximately 70 other jurisdictions in
the world which celebrate their regard for civilization and humanity by
shunning capital punishment.''
There has been a movement in the states to celebrate the dignity of human
life and to start a moratorium on executions. It did not come soon enough
for Tim McVeigh, but it can come soon enough for others.
Where we go from here is a question of critical importance. I have told
you, honestly, that Tim cared for people. And some of the people he cared
deepest about were his brothers on the federal death row. Even Tim
recognized that our claims that we are not racially biased are false. If
we believe that, then we ignore the reality that 18 of the 20 men behind
me on the federal death row in Terre Haute are persons of color. Fully 90
percent belong to a minority. If we do not acknowledge that, we are lying
to ourselves about what we are doing. We are killing the poor and the
minority and people that we believe to be different and lesser than
ourselves.
Even in Tim McVeigh's case, to which the racial disparity doesn't apply,
we were incapable of inflicting the death penalty in a fair manner.
The FBI could not participate in the prosecution without breaching its
obligation to turn over the witness statements. This must make us realize
that we are too fallible, we are simply too human to extract so final and
irreversible a punishment.
If there is anything good that can come from the execution of Tim McVeigh,
it may be to help us realize sooner that we simply cannot do this anymore.
I am firmly convinced that it is not a question of if we will stop, it is
simply a question of when.
Thank you all very much.
--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
From info at giganetstore.com Mon Jun 11 04:46:30 2001
From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:46:30 +0100
Subject: Novidades HP
Message-ID: <03e4e3046110b61WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>
Novidades HP
A giganetstore.com vai disponibilizar-lhe
uma vez por mês informação sobre o melhor e o mais actual dos produtos
HP. E já agora aproveite para visitar a nossa Loja HP
Officejet HP V40
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CD Writer HP CD12RI
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promoções e novos serviços.
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From schear at lvcm.com Mon Jun 11 12:54:41 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:54:41 -0700
Subject: Pap Smear
In-Reply-To: <200106111600.MAA29162@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010611123741.0331b008@pop3.lvcm.com>
At 12:00 PM 6/11/2001 -0700, John Young wrote:
Much deleted.
>Technically a worm, the virus is of unknown origin and was
>spotted by computer security companies on May 22. It arrives
>as an attachment to an e-mail message titled, "FWD: Help us ALL
>to END ILLEGAL child porn NOW." When a recipient opens the
>attachment, child pornography statutes appear on screen. The
>program then searches the user's hard drive for picture files
>that have pornographic-sounding names and then sends an e-mail
>message and a list of suspect files to a law enforcement agency
>picked at random from the program's database.
>
>"Hi," the message sent to the police says: "This is Antipedo2001.
>I have found a PC with known child pornography files on the hard
>drive. I have included a listing below and included a sample for
>your convenience."
>
>The virus also sends out copies of itself to addresses in the
>victim's e-mail address book.
>
>Apart from the program's invasive nature, virus experts question
>the results the program sends out.
>
>Its search software is apt to falsely identify files as containing
>child pornography, said Stephen Trilling, director of research at
>the Symantec Anti-Virus Research Center in Santa Monica, Calif.,
>which suggests that the results could cause irreparable harm to
>run-of-the-mill computer owners if the results are acted upon.
>
>While law enforcement agencies cannot search an individual's computer
>without a warrant, they can act on a tip. The F.B.I., one of the agencies
>on the Noped list, would not say if it had received tips from this virus
>program. A Justice Department lawyer said that law enforcement
>officials could legally conduct a search based on the tip, but added,
>"That's a very different question from `would law enforcement ever
>open an investigation based on that information?' "
>
>Perhaps most troubling, legal experts say, is the havoc that the virus
>could wreak on the reputation of people with no involvement in child
>pornography.
>
>"There is no telling how far this information might spread," said
>Stephen J. Davidson, a lawyer and spokesman for the Computer
>Law Association. Local news organizations could report that a
>parent was under investigation as a pedophile, he said, "all
>resulting from an unwarranted and illegal entry to your private
>computer."
It appears that one effective way to combat such a virus is with
disinformation.
Approach 1: Merge one of those "50 million Internet address lists" and
random listing of possibly pedo file names which the virus might have
flagged and generate email. Generate forged emails from these addresses
and mail notifications to random addresses from the virus' LE address list.
Approach 2: Release another virus which generates false reports from any of
the users it infects.
steve
From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Jun 11 06:19:07 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:19:07 +0100
Subject:
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609145309.00cb5da0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <3B24C54B.46D1115F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
An excellent recipe from Reese, though he is remarkably easy on the
garlic. I would include an entire head of garlic.
The meat dish described below should be eaten with Jerusalem artichokes
mashed with butter and black pepper - some pureed suede (if you call
them that - large, sweet, orange turnips) could be included for extra
flavour. There should also be an a salad of traditional lettuce (not
iceberg), hard-boiled eggs, black olives aubergines fried in olive oil
(I think you Americans may call them eggplants), red onions, and a
selection of different kinds of bean, dressed with garlic and wasabi
beaten into real (i.e. made with olive oil and raw egg) mayonnaise.
The drink *must* be Guinness and you must drink at least 4 pints of it.
Reese missed out the delivery process, always important in chemical
warfare. This is in fact a binary munition. The inert component consists
of either a strong double espresso coffee and cigarettes, or else
ordinary water. About 6 to 8 hours after the meal - earlier if you feel
necessary - you visit the target location with the other components.
Then just stand around sipping espresso and smoking. This of course is
easier to achieve if the target is a cafe. If you have moral objections
to smoking, a similar binary effect can be obtained by drinking 2 to 3
litres of cold water very fast.
Ken
Reese wrote:
>
> At 07:09 AM 6/9/01, John Yeomans wrote:
> > Send me the instructions to make a stink bomb
> > please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Follow the recipe below, consume, and wait.
>
> Take:
> 4 lbs. ground beef (at least 80% lean)
> 3 16oz can dark red kidney beans
> 1 4.5oz can peeled & chopped green chilies (Old El Paso or similar)
> 2 8oz can tomato sauce
> 2 6ox can tomato paste
> 1 large green bell pepper
> 1 medium white onion
> 3 11oz bag white corn tortilla chips, round style (Jays or similar)
> 2/3 to 1 cup chili powder (*)
> 4 tbsp masa flour (commonly used to make tortillas & tamales,
> Quaker brand or similar) (*)
> 2-1/2 tbsp ground oregano (*)
> 1-1/2 tbsp paprika
> 1-1/2 tbsp ground red pepper (cayenne pepper) (*)
> 2 tbsp minced garlic
> 2 to 3 tsp salt, to taste (NOT tbsp!)
>
> NOTE 1) tbsp = tablespoon, tsp = teaspoon
>
> NOTE 2) ingredients marked (*) are also found in popular chili mixes,
> such as "Carroll Shelby's Original Texas Brand Chili Mix" or
> "2 Alarm Chili Mix". If using these mixes instead of separate
> ingredients, you will need two packages of mix to roughly
> equal the recommended amounts.
>
> NOTE 3) both tomato sauce and tomato paste are used in this recipe.
> This is due primarily to sugar content and really does affect
> the overall flavor.
>
> + Start heating 5 cups of water in a large pot over medium heat.
> Stir in salt and tomato sauce. DO NOT ALLOW TO BOIL!
>
> + Mix chopped onion & bell pepper with green chilies, while stirring
> in frying pan over low heat for 10 minutes. Transfer to a bowl for
> later use.
>
> + Break up ground beef into small chunks (think of a good size for
> picking up with a tortilla chip), and place in covered frying pan to
> brown over medium heat. When half done, drain the grease. When done
> browning, drain any remaining grease, then stir in onion/pepper
> mixture from bowl.
>
> + While beef is browning, stir in all spices (but NOT masa flour) to
> liquid in pot, mix thoroughly.
>
> + When beef is browned, stir tomato sauce into liquid in pot, then
> add beef and stir very thoroughly.
>
> + Cover pot and allow to simmer over low heat for 1/2 hour, stirring
> every 10 minutes.
>
> + Stir in masa flour, and continue to simmer another 15 minutes.
> While simmering, drain liquid from beans.
>
> + Stir in beans, and continue to simmer another 15 minutes.
>
> + Serve immediately, with lots of tortilla chips for dipping (use
> instead of a spoon). A dark beer will help wash it down. If you
> would rather have soft drinks, Squirt or Fresca are excellent
> choices and their flavor complements the spices very nicely.
From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Jun 11 06:21:35 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:21:35 +0100
Subject: (on Young's "private language")
References:
Message-ID: <3B24C5DF.9422918F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Aimee Farr wrote:
> Anonymous, (a fellow Sophist? FN1), points out that mass media is written
> for the masses.
>
> A larger point is that THOUGHT PRESUPPOSES LANGUAGE. By limiting your
> language to the lowest common denominator, your limit the 'lodestar' of the
> sign vehicles. American media speaks in the lowest common denominator in the
> interest of social justice and convenience. Some feel it has worked an equal
> injustice by hobbling our ability to THINK. "The limits of my language are
> the limits of my mind." (Wittgenstein)
Not in the interests of social justice. In the interests of advertising,
sales, and ratings.
Ken
From measl at mfn.org Mon Jun 11 12:50:02 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:50:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Statement from McVeigh's Attorney
In-Reply-To: <200106111915.f5BJFOh14818@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID:
> If there is anything good that can come from the execution of Tim McVeigh,
> it may be to help us realize sooner that we simply cannot do this anymore.
> I am firmly convinced that it is not a question of if we will stop, it is
> simply a question of when.
The killing will continue until the killers themselves actively fear that
they will be the next targets: as long as it is just The People who are
subject to killing, things will not change.
--
Yours,
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org
If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From a3495 at cotse.com Mon Jun 11 11:55:33 2001
From: a3495 at cotse.com (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:55:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Social Security Numbers and health insurance
Message-ID: <992285733.3b25142524122@public.webmail.cotse.com>
At 3:47 AM +0000 6/11/01, Dr. Evil wrote:
>I need to sign up for health insurance tomorrow. I'm going to buy
>individual coverage from Kaiser. On their form, it asks for an SSN,
>of course.
>
>Well, Kaiser is not a government agency, and is certainly not
>associated with the Social Security Adminisrtation in any way, so they
>have no legitimate need for my SSN, and I don't want to give it to
>them.
Try to get your employer to arrange to use employee ID numbers rather than SSNs
as the healthcare identifier. If it can work in New York, it can work
anywhere...
Failing that, why not save up the money you would have paid out every month in
a separate account and insure yourself? If you're young and in good health, it
might be worth the risk while you save up a good amount for later.
I used to work at a place that paid me fifty bucks every month for NOT signing
up with their health plan. Wouldn't hurt to ask! I've heard enough horror
stories about Kaiser to think there's got to be a better option for you out
there, at any rate.
~Faustine.
***
The whole of the developments and operations of analysis are now capable of
being executed by machinery. ... As soon as an Analytical Engine exists, it
will necessarily guide the future course of science.
Passage from the Life of a Philosopher, Charles Babbage (London 1864)
From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Jun 11 12:51:10 2001
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:51:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: The Chong-ster
Message-ID: <200106111951.PAA18325@www6.aa.psiweb.com>
http://www.writtenbyme.com/content/49232
#
# Legalization of Marijuana 'High Priority' of Tommy Chong's
# Presidential Bid in 2004
#
# by wyoming farnsworth, 7th June 2001.
#
# Under Chong's vision, the Benevolent United Radical Party (BURP)
# has adopted a political agenda that's considered 'extreme' even
# by political extremists. At present, BURP has publicly committed,
# through printing of its party agenda, to:
#
# Disband the United States of America in favor of
# "a less-is-more kinda country";
#
# Establish any and all Taco Bell restaurant food entrees as a
# "Fifth Food Group" to the currently existing "Four";
#
# Ban all 'country' but not 'western' music, along with
# dismantling and "burning at the stake" all of the entire
# Nashville record-producing community;
#
# Utilize the vast resources of the FBI, CIA, and the NSA to
# locate the long-rumored-dead Elvis Presley, Marilyn Monroe,
# and Buddy Holly;
#
# Motorize all grocery stores shopping carts; and
#
# Globally legalize, cultivate, and distribute marijuana.
#
# "Yeah," Chong said, scratching his genitalia for several moments
# as he ponders his party's future. "I think the marijuana thing's
# gonna be a bitch. You know? Like, can the U.S. make law for the
# whole world? I think it can, and, if I get elected president,
# you know, like, it'll happen."
#
# The Benevolent United Radical Party maintains its headquarters
# in Tiujauna, Mexico, although for purposes of eluding taxation
# they appear to have multiple HQ locations in Delaware, South
# Dakota, Iowa, Wyoming, Georgia, and Oregon.
#
# "Actually, what it is is a big f**king mobile home," Chong
# explains. "It's painted just like the f**king Partridge Family
# bus, you know, with colorful squares and cubes and trapezoids
# and shit. BURP goes wherever the wind blows, man."
#
# "Like, that's what makes it magic, man."
From editor at newsletter.join4free.com Mon Jun 11 15:51:16 2001
From: editor at newsletter.join4free.com (editor at newsletter.join4free.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:51:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FREE Offer From Adam & Eve!=> cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-ID: <200106112251.PAA20230@toad.com>
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 7488 bytes
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URL:
From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jun 11 14:27:17 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:27:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: ORBS sucked into a black hole!
In-Reply-To: <200106111408.KAA09170@www7.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID:
On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote:
> http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/06/08/orbs/print.html
> #
> # A spam cop goes AWOL
> #
> # The ORBS blacklist, a controversial tool for stopping unsolicited
> # e-mail, is suddenly inaccessible.
It does no such thing. What ORBS does do is go around telling MTA
operators how to configure their servers, or else.
I hope ORBS burns in hell.
--
____________________________________________________________________
"...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jun 11 14:30:42 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:30:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: SCOTUS rulz! (fwd)
Message-ID:
Where did that scum bag Scalia get the 'in general public use' test?
Geez, these guys make it up as they go along...
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:25:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: George at Orwellian.Org
Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Subject: CDR: SCOTUS rulz!
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Scotus-Heat-Detector.html
#
# June 11, 2001
#
# Court Rules Against Heat-Sensor Searches
#
# Filed at 11:03 a.m. ET
#
# WASHINGTON (AP) -- Police violate the Constitution if they use
# a heat-sensing device to peer inside a home without a search
# warrant, the Supreme Court ruled Monday.
#
# An unusual lineup of five justices voted to bolster the Fourth
# Amendment's protection against unreasonable searches and threw
# out an Oregon man's conviction for growing marijuana.
#
# Monday's ruling reversed a lower court decision that said
# officers' use of a heat-sensing device was not a search of Danny
# Lee Kyllo's home and therefore they did not need a search warrant.
#
# In an opinion written by Justice Antonin Scalia, by many measures
# the most conservative member of the court, the majority found
# that the heat detector allowed police to see things they otherwise
# could not.
#
# ``Where, as here, the government uses a device that is not in
# general public use to explore details of the home that would
# previously have been unknowable without physical intrusion, the
# surveillance is a 'search' and is presumptively unreasonable
# without a warrant,'' Scalia wrote.
#
# While the court has previously approved some warrantless searches,
# this one did not meet tests the court has previously set, Scalia
# wrote.
#
# The decision means the information police gathered with the
# thermal device -- namely a suspicious pattern of hot spots on
# the home's exterior walls -- cannot be used against Kyllo.
#
# The court sent the case back to lower courts to determine whether
# police have enough other basis to support the search warrant
# that was eventually served on Kyllo, and thus whether any of
# the evidence inside his home can be used against him.
#
# Justices Clarence Thomas, David H. Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg
# and Stephen Breyer joined the majority.
#
# Justice John Paul Stevens wrote a dissenting opinion joined by
# Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, and Justices Sandra Day
# O'Connor and Anthony M. Kennedy.
--
____________________________________________________________________
"...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From ravage at ssz.com Mon Jun 11 14:31:01 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:31:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Crypto Survey May 2001 by Markku J. Saarelainen (fwd)
Message-ID:
--
____________________________________________________________________
"...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:04:37 -0700
From: Markku Saarelainen
To: mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com
Subject: Crypto Survey May 2001 by Markku J. Saarelainen
********************************************************
CRYPTO SURVEY MAY 2001
Cryptographic Survey, May 2001, Markku J. Saarelainen
Email: cryptocom at hotvoice.com
********************************************************
A SUMMARY CONCLUSION:
The major societal development since the 1st and 2nd crypto surveys in 1996 and 1997 has been the removal of many regulatory barriers for open trading of cryptographic products in the North America and globally. In addition, the number of cryptographic applications and component implementations has increased, while at the same time the variety of different types of solutions has risen. This does not necessarily mean the wider use of encryption in businesses and personal activities. Many same or similar behavioral barriers for the effective utilization of many security solutions still exist limiting the protection of communications, data storage and networking. In addition, the lack of the interoperability between solutions from different suppliers tends to decrease the number of effective cryptography users worldwide. It is clear that the awareness for encrypted communication and protected information activities has increased, while necessary regulatory changes for protectin!
g !
entities from security vulnerabilities has enabled cryptographic product suppliers to satisfy market requirements in the U.S.A., in the North America and globally. However, regulatory and cultural differences exist from one nation or region to another creating a global unbalanced situation of the security use, which has the reducing effect on security practices and policy implementations of any global entity in different regions. This impacts on the interoperability of units of global entities. It is likely that there shall be greater competing drives in the information technology market place between different security strategies and approaches from different software and hardware product and security suppliers.
********************************************************
QUESTION 1. In your opinion, what are the 5-10 most significant applications of encryption technologies currently in commercial enterprises?
********************************************************
1. HTTP over SSL (aka HTTPS) / SSL for credit card processing / SSL / Web-activity privacy (SSL)
2. IPsec
3. RSA Secure ID (maybe)
4. Online Credit Card Processing & Financial Transfers
5. VPNs / Virtual Private Networks for widely distributed offices / VPN for remote access to Intranet
6. Email encryption (via PGP/GPG or SMIME) / Encrypted Messages / Email Privacy
7. Digital signing authentication of messages
8. Consensus and voting software (not now but give it 5 years)
9. Encrypted file systems for sensitive data
10. Signing software for installation
11. Signing email messages to show official authority
12. Wireless local area network encryption
13. Password protection/access control
14. Data protection
15. Session protection (VPN's)
16. Authentication and authorization / Customer authentication (e.g. PIN checking)
17. Securing B2B file exchange
18. PKI
19. Remote secure teleworking
20. Digital signatures
21. Time-stamping
********************************************************
QUESTION 2. In your opinion, what are 5-10 main barriers currently that may prevent the successful implementation and utilization
of encryption technologies in commercial enterprises?
********************************************************
1. Ignorance of risks prevents purchase
2. Dishonest portrayal of product (i.e.: false security claims and blatant product holes in end-to-end protection) promotes distrust in the whole
industry
3. Most products are a waste of time because they are not a comprehensive solution - e.g.: why bother using PGP when there is nothing in any NAI products to protect against back-office-style electronic eavesdropping attacks?
4. Many people do not care about cryptography and/or security products
5. Having lived happily without serious protection for a long while, most customers believe there is no point retrofitting an expensive solution for a problem they do not have (and many of them are probably right...)
6. Lack of knowledge by decision-maker
7. Low knowledge level of users
8. Lack of knowledge by computer scientists
9. Lack of complete standards (S/MIME to be extended, ...)
10. Cost
11. It is too hard to use / complexity / Not transparent enough and made user hard to use.
12. Difficult and complex configurations.
13. Diversity of enterprise
14. Trained security personnel
15. Commercial operating systems are too difficult to secure and hence there is no such thing as a rusted base
16. No widely accepted standard for smart cards or tokens
17. No facility for reading smart cards or tokens on mass market PCs
18. Character limit on Microsoft passwords
19. Bad advice on password generation
20. Unjustified prices for non-commodity products
21. Confused security market - lack of standards and best practices, everyone is trying to define their own market segment and different way to solve the same common problem.
22. Protectiveness of public sector - local solutions are preferred
23. No. 1 is the need of users training, as they tend not to understand too well what procedures are for encryption. This can mean huge resources/budgeting requirements and the aftermath of running Helpdesk support.
24. Key distribution is also a major consideration for large user groups. PKI seems to address this problem but it brings forth more problems of its own. PKI is not simple to set up in a production environment and certificates rollout is a noted issue. Incompatibility issues with various PKI vendors' product may bring down the whole PKI project. Very often customers are forced into accepting single PKI supplier solution. PKI related standards abound but incompatibility is still with us. Also an issue is the insufficient supply of security professional to serve customers' demand.
25. Lack of PKI or alternative
26. Expensive charges by digital certificate issuers
27. Difficulty of users managing passwords
28. Failures of interoperability between vendors implementing "standards"
29. IS department sees encryption as a limit on its monitoring activities
30. Users lack of security knowledge
31. Interoperability between heterogeneous systems
32. Not aware of the importance of security
33. Complex key management
34. Inefficiency
35. Most existing Public Key infrastructures are based on deeply flawed models of trust. They abandon the idea of trust and aim to prove identity instead - but fail to do even that since Verisign, etc, do not adequately protect themselves from fraud.
36. There are too few key authorities and the business has substantial barriers to entry. Basically, if you cannot get your root key into the default configuration of the majority browser (for which the software company that makes the majority browser will charge a very large amount of money) then your key authority is a non-starter. This creates a monopoly environment in which customers are being drastically overcharged and underserved for their key certificates, and also creates targets for hacking, fraud, or legal compromise,
which would cause enormous damage if compromised.
37. The non-centralized key authorities favored by PGP et al are a better trust model and don't suffer from the few-points-of-attack problem, but they are being killed by apathy. The "web of trust" is no
longer a web, it's a bunch of teeny bits of webbing blowing hither and yon.
38. Software Patents. Software patents have necessitated creating multiple incompatible versions of many things that ought to be public infrastructure and utilities by now. As long as users of one version of PGP can't read or verify messages created by another, due to software patents, all versions of PGP have diminished utility.
39. Development practices. It is almost impossible to write secure code using what is now considered "ordinary" Object-oriented programming. GUI's and windowing systems have so many deep security flaws that security is nearly impossible unless these things are reimplemented from the ground up. In particular, every windowing system on the market makes it possible to monitor keystrokes intended for a different program, and none even have an option to "clear" memory of what's on the screen before releasing the memory back to the system where another program can allocate it.
40. Protocol Impoverishment. There are many useful protocols that have been discussed and discovered, but very *VERY* few of them have ever seen a robust or publicly available implementation.
*********************************************************
QUESTION 3. What are activities and projects that can be initiated and taken to lower and reduce above barriers (see the question 2.)?
*********************************************************
1. Introduce a new government law which makes security companies 100% liable and responsible for all damage and losses that occur as a result of their software failing to perform the purpose it was sold for, and failing to live up to their advertised claims. This will force product vendors to revise their claims, remove the lies from their packaging, and cause them to have to print lengthy explanations of what threats their products can not withstand. This will give customers an opportunity to understand what risks they really face after using various products and an opportunity to seriously compare different products pre-purchase.
2. Education and training
3. Consulting or outsourcing of enterprise security
4. More publicity
5. Standardization
6. Integration of security products into mass-market software
7. There is little we can do about the end-users, I think time is the best cure here. Imagine asking the government or any organization to provide free training on security practices to all. Hopefully, users will see encryption
is a tool to protect them and help them rather than something hindering their work and therefore must fight against. On the (encryption) technology side I believe the industry can do something to help the poor users and itself as a side bonus. It would be much easier for security integrators if different vendors work together making their solutions friendlier to each other. I notice this trend has started already but I think it is not enough. There should be some form of non-vendor affiliated body that run some certification scheme to endorse/state "what product from which vendor is compatible with who" sort of reference.
8. Remove the barriers listed in Question 2
9. Develop an alternate Internet based on secure technology.
10. Education project to be launched in include cryptography in engineering and computer scientist basic school programs.
11. A widely accepted, free certificate issuer would solve the PKI and certificate-expense problems. This could be a government service.
12. Simplification of security standards and focusing on profiles, which represent limited but functional subsets will help with interop.
13. Most security standards are too complex.
14. Children should begin being trained in school to deal with network security throughout their lives. They should learn to memorize passwords and understand the basic functionality of two key cryptography.
15. Schools should prepare children for a life where crypto keys are tools they are as comfortable using as computers.
16. Push a practical PKI for ease of use.
17. Make interface more friendly and transparent to the users.
18. Reduce human interactions.
19. Make configuration easy.
20. Public domain or public-license sw for an extended set of protocols ought to be developed. Software patents have become a "poison pill" to compatibility, so they ought to be avoided and it ought to be possible to completely avoid them. GPG and OpenSSH are the two premier examples of this, and their existence has a lot to do with the technologies they represent having finally become important.
21. Public awareness of the probability and consequences of failure to keep data secure. This is sorely lacking now, although the IT departments of major companies are finally starting to "get it".
22. Public Key authorities need to be much easier to set up.
23. Crypto books aimed at kids and amateurs. The developers stuff is there already, but it's hard to draw new workers into the field beyond the stale "spy glamour" thing. Anyway, kids and amateurs are the future security pros who can solve the major problems with software and etc; we just need more people in the field who are willing to get their hands dirty and experiment with code. This is one of the most lopsided fields of software development, where we have *SCADS* of ideas from academics that no one has had time to properly implement yet. We need a lot of implementers to get really fired up about it.
********************************************************
********************************************************
CRYPTO SURVEYS OF 1996 AND 1997
********************************************************
SURVEY SUMMARY : ENCRYPTION FOLLOW-UP SURVEY
MAY, 1997
Note: This survey summary contains raw survey results that have NOT been
analyzed, evaluated or prioritized. The results are based on comments
and opinions (all of which may not be facts) that were received from
many individuals who responded to the original (October 1996) survey.
*****************************
QUESTION 1: In your opinion, what are main developments in the adoption
of encryption technologies in commercial enterprises since October,
1996?
*****************************
"The continued government attempts to get 'key recovery', and a certain
amount of reluctant willingness from business."
"Purely for e-commerce reasons have there been any advancements. The
rest of the encryption world (privacy/freedom etc.) have been
appallingly backward and most governments will tend to hold them back."
"Network Computers (NCs)."
"Slight easing of export restrictions. Development of several payment
protocols. Increasing adoption of retail commerce over the net as
evidenced by recent IPO of Amazon.com."
"There is some movement towards more advanced mathematics. The market
is searching for patent free/royalty free encryption. Governments are
attempting to halt it, but are failing miserably."
"Electronic payment via The Internet."
"C2's bypass of the export regulations. The broader adoption of SSL.
Eudora plugins for PGP."
"-SSL has been widely used for the securing of data for a number of
on-line Internet banks. -Encrypted tunneling products which extend the
corporate Intranet/LAN are now becoming widely available. -Smart cards
are finally appearing in North America. In Canada alone Visa Cash,
Exact (Proton?), and Mondex are going through trials. -SSL is now widely
used to protect credit card transactions on a number of internet retail
sites -The US government continues to support key escrow for exported
encryption. -Major players (i.e. banks, IBM, MS, HP, VeriFone) are
taking steps to integrate SET into their range of products. -Future
browsers are going to allow smart cards to Interface with the Internet."
*****************************
QUESTION 2: In your opinion, what are 5-10 main barriers currently that
may prevent the successful implementation and utilization of encryption
technologies in commercial enterprises?
*****************************
"-Legislation and government intervention for strong encryption.
-Unfamiliarity with the technology will produce mistrust of its
reliability. -Safe key-management processes are difficult to achieve.
This will reduce the security of cryptography and thus its usefulness
for many applications. -Cryptography is not user-friendly right now.
Until it becomes so than it is unlikely to achieve widespread usage.
-Licensing fees for cryptographic algorithms are not cheap. Until
patents expire for things like the RSA public key algorithm the costs
of developing reliable cryptographic products will remain high. - There
are a large number of cryptographic products with no clear standards in
sight."
"Export regulations."
"Lack of perceived need."
"Lack of expertise among engineers and technicians."
"a) Lack of interest in security b) Concentration on cost c) Lack of
ready-to-use cheap tools d) Legislation and potential legislation e)
Patents and licensing issues"
"Government inadequacies in legislation, Vendors propensity to hand
private keys to government (extrapolate that to insecurity when a person
working for a vendor is bribed to give out a private key), Costs, Public
reluctance in encryption (FUD factor)"
"Threats to roles of traditional players (e.g., SET's effect on card
issuers)., Seamless integration into products., Education of users.,
Regulatory obstacles. Widespread availability."
"1) ease of use, 2) cost of real security, 3) an understanding of
security details, 4) a lack of understanding the difference between
cryptography and security 5) uncertainty as to what the government rules
are"
"- exportability (permissions are needed if a product implements
cryptography, and 2 or more versions of the software has to be build), -
patents (can't exploit algorithms without negotiating royalties)"
"The governments export restrictions on strong cryptographic
algorithms."
" It is not a question of availability of software, but of
interoperability between systems made/sold in different regions of the
world."
"Government FUD. Ease of use. Cost of training etc. Worry about leakage
of secrets."
*****************************
QUESTION 3: What are activities and projects that can be initiated and
taken to lower and reduce above barriers (see the question 2.)?
*****************************
"a) Wider accurate publication of security lapses.
b),c) Cheap tools fitted for a job. I just read a Sun catalogue
where much of the software (including security software)
has laughable prices. Get a straightforward Virtual
Private Network from 100 pounds for a start.
d) Do strong lobbying and occupy lawmaker's time with other stuff
when they seem to be going in the wrong direction.
e) Wait for some important expiry dates.
Have more reasonable contact with license-holders.
Bypass licenses by producing new methods that get less
restriction."
"Continued integration into key products such as Netscape and IE.
Perhaps even into OSes."
"Lowering the barriers to deploying certification authority
infrastructures for use w/in intranets. (in terms of cost, ease of
administration, etc.), Further efforts at deregulation."
"Lobby governments, Do not place restrictions for vendor based key
management, Push for totally private key systems"
"A not for profit, global, public education group should be created
whose purpose is to help educate businesses. Secondarily it should
educate the public on the issues of privacy, but the primary goal should
be to get all businesses (mainly the small ones) to understand that
simple pains can give a great deal of security, and that the cost is
worth the money and time saved from fraud and theft."
"An e-mail program that a "stoned hippy" could use and still not leak
information is needed. It would not allow too much flexibility, but it
would give "the masses" a hands on feel for what security is and how
crypto plays a role in their everyday life. Six year old kids and their
grandmothers could be using even this simple security level for e-mail.
It would go a long way because people will ask many questions, and they
will get many answers. It would more rapidly diffuse the information
and education over the populace (world wide)."
"Develop simple and user-friendly ways to use cryptography and manage
keys effectively."
"Reduce the ability for corporations to patent cryptographic processes,
key-management techniques, and anything other than completely unique
cryptographic algorithms. We don't need research into new cryptography
we need open access to refinements of what exists. If people can
patent those refinements then it reduces the access people have to
these new technologies at the expense of society at large."
"Eliminate export barriers on strong encryption."
"Education (public): crypto is used for authentication as well as
privacy. It is *not* military or espionage technology. It is
(required) enabling technology for tomorrow's information superhighway."
"Education (professional): principles of information security taught in
all relevant courses. (e.g. computing, telecom, electronics, etc)."
----- Results of the original survey in October, 1996 -------
SURVEY SUMMARY: Encryption in Commercial Enterprises
October, 1996
by
M. J. Saarelainen
SURVEY METHODS BRIEFLY: Three specific questions were sent to several
mailing lists and news groups. The great number of responses was
received. These responses were compiled as received to the list (without
any priorities) below. No detailed analysis or evaluations were
completed at this time. Please, review these questions and responses and
let me know, if you like to add, remove or change something. Thanks.
-------
QUESTION 1. In your opinion, what are the 5-10 most significant
applications of encryption technologies currently in commercial
enterprises?
RESPONSES (# of responses = 29) TO QUESTION 1:
1. Secure E-Mail / Secure E-mail SMTP/POP3 mail client
2. Secure Internet-Shopping
3. Encrypt the entire internet ( encrypting routers etc. )
4. Encrypted file systems - partition for laptops
5. Encrypted voice (cellular, cordless, wireline, voice-over-internet)
6. Secure FAX
7. Point-to-point encrypted links, for corporations using the Internet
as a WAN.
8. EDI (both encryption & authentication), Electronic Data Interchange
(EDI)
9. Secure FTP client/server software
10. Secure FTP client only software
11. Secure UNIX FTP server software
12. Secure File based encryption for HD and Floppy
13. Accounting departments need to ensure their data can't be changed
14. Engineering needs to ensure competition doesn't easily steal ideas
15. Secure login (and insecure, in the case of Unix)
16. Network traffic encryption
17. Local file/data protection (incl. backup protection)
18. Protection of proprietary information while allowing company use of
it.
19. Crypto applications as an element in the information security system
20. Regional and national electric power exchanges between companies
21. Large investment banks who want to coordinate across their own
organizations and others in significant numbers
22. Healthcare cries out for encryption
23. The military for sensitive non-classified information.
24. Law enforcement is a natural for the internet, if they could agree
on a common security solution.
25. Online banking, online sales and commerce, data protection on
commercial database servers, secure transfer of govt. information, ie.
tax information on citizens.
26. The most widely spread encryption technologies are pgp and
proprietary hardware solutions by different providers like Cylink etc.
SSL is now upcoming.
27. Protection and storage of Archives
28. Person to person communication within an organization.
29. Secure remote communications (over the Internet)
--------
QUESTION 2. In your opinion, what are 5-10 main barriers currently that
may prevent the successful implementation and utilization of encryption
technologies in commercial enterprises?
RESPONSES (# of responses = 22) TO QUESTION 2:
1. Cryptic user interfaces
2. ITAR regulations, Government regulation or restrictions of use of
strong encryption, Government export restrictions for strong encryption.
3. Ignorance ( pegasus provides REAL encryption )
4. Lack of knowledge of resources available to Business.
5. Misunderstanding that encryption is complicated.
6. Misunderstanding that encryption is costly.
7. General lack of knowledge as to how to write *strong* encryption
8. Lack of integration of strong encryption so that the user must
learn/know too much in order to use it properly
9. General lack of understanding of the necessity of *strong* encryption
10. Difficult to use
11. Slow speed
12. Complexity makes choices difficult since no one can be a full expert
13. Workers have to wait for a supervisor
14. A lack of understanding of the technology
15. The lack of good cost-benefit analysis data
16. On the product development side, few companies have both the
engineering and the marketing/industry expertise to successfully make
good secure products which meet real market needs and demands
17. Key Management. The ability for a user to gain authentification for
use of cryptographic programs, to access information for which that
person is authorized. Passwords can be forgotten, or copied, verifying a
user easily is very difficult.
18. Lack of standards, and most of all lack of good certification
services.
19. The second barrier derives from a missing standard interface in
E-Mail, ftp ... solutions.so transparently embed widely spread
encryption
20. Lack of knowledge of encryption is a big hurdle to it's
implementation. Non-technical people are required to evaluate the use
of a technological product they may not understand completely. It's
difficult to put your trust in an algorithm when you don't understand
how it works.
21. Many enterprises may not be aware of how easy it is to begin using
encryption within their organization.
22. Many organizations may not recognize the need to protect information
within their organization. Some may not be aware of how easy it is to
tap into electronic communications.
--------
QUESTION 3. What are activities and projects that can be initiated and
taken to lower and reduce above barriers (see the question 2.)?
RESPONSES (# of responses = 27) TO QUESTION 3:
1. Integrated mail reader with PGP capabilities, easy to use
2. Spreading awareness of how useful strong crypto really is.
3. Spreading awareness of exactly *why* governments seeks to prevent the
spread of crypto.
4. Writing strong encryption software and placing it in the public
domain.
5. Proving by actual demonstration that existing encryption is
inadequate.
6. Encouraging wealthy crypto advocates to speak freely.
7. Education of users and vendors of the issues
8. Lobbying of governments by aforementioned enlightened users/vendors
9. Different products need to be created which can interoperate
transparently to the user, but not deliver data unless operator is valid
10. Smart cards which attach to every terminal, the cards go with the
person and they can validate themselves at any terminal
11. Overcoming the complexity barrier requires patient teaching of each
client
12. A set of brochures and pamphlets needs to be created which describes
most systems in use for a particular level of security
13. A major project would be to simply educate the managers of most
companies about crypto, to remove the magic and bring the whole thing
down to earth
14. Manufacturers need to go to more trouble talking with customers
before designing products and be more creative in finding ways to meet
market needs
15. Security companies also need to audit themselves and demonstrate
that they are trustworthy
16. Better turnkey low-cost enterprise-wide solutions to common problems
(network encryption, for example) are needed.
17. Make applications easier to use, Build easy to use encryption into
applications so that it is smooth or even transparent to users
18. Universal standards for dual key encryption
19. Reduce strength of encryption to increase speed
20. Large groups of customers must get together and dictate standards to
the security industry.
21. The first thing is to implement a transparent interface to
encryption function to all data transfer services.
22. The second would be to get all suppliers of encryption technologies
to confirm to this standard.
23. I think the best thing is to initiate a workgroup at The Open Group
responsible for encryption interfaces.
24. Public Software such as PGP should be widely available. The more
people are experienced with this software the more likely they are to
use and trust it.
25. Making software like PGP widely available means more than just
making sure copies of it are accessible. It also means making it
user-friendly enough.
26. Education is also required. I find that very few people really know
about these issues.
27. People need to promote awareness of the current situation.
--------
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From me at myplace.to Mon Jun 11 13:39:04 2001
From: me at myplace.to (me at myplace.to)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:39:04 -0400
Subject: Automatic's
In-Reply-To:
References: <008501c0f242$1ef8f790$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
<91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
<91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E06775B@MISSERVER>
<3.0.6.32.20010610193321.0080ddd0@pop.sprynet.com>
<008501c0f242$1ef8f790$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010611163904.007cbc70@mail.ewol.com>
At 10:16 AM 6/11/01 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Only one person has survived a shot (by a
>>> firearm) to the eye, and she's been on life support since she was hit
>>> by a .22.
>>
>>Where did this statistic come from? I find it fairly hard to believe....
>
> Someone who is a member of the Wound Ballistics Association,
>a SWAT member and instructor.
BFD!! SWAT members and instructers are no more reliable as a source for
such information than anyone else. Very few will ever fire an on duty shot
and fewer still will actually hit anyone. IWBA membership is available for
any full time LEO and if I remember correctly, for just about anyone else
who wants it bad enough to write a letter.
Only one survivor of a gun shot to an eye is bullshit.
From riffatbhatti at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 09:44:45 2001
From: riffatbhatti at hotmail.com (RIFFAT BHATTI)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:44:45 -0000
Subject: timmy mcveigh
Message-ID:
the day he blasted the fbi building in oaklahoma city i knew he had
something to do with iraq , the us unjust and brutal acts of terror in iraq
must be avenged and it happened in the heart of america ,may his soul rest
in peace the avenger the great timmy mc veigh .down with us and its
terroist act , now what about the killings of palistinian children and
innocint women and we pray that many many more timmys will be born in side
us and avenge the cruel and brutal govt of us
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Mon Jun 11 15:46:31 2001
From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:46:31 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Interesting web site
In-Reply-To: <200106092033.QAA11690324@www64.hway.net>
Message-ID:
Is this going to somehow exhume him and make him live again? Fuckwit.
On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 legalchallenge2001 at yahoo.com wrote:
>I have found a good site that proves that there indeed was a cover-up regarding
>Vince Foster's death. You can visit it at http://www.fbicover-up.com or
>click here (if html-mail enabled).
>
>
>
>
--
Galt's sci-fi paradox: Stormtroopers versus Redshirts to the death.
Who is John Galt? galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who!
From responder at join4free.com Mon Jun 11 09:47:23 2001
From: responder at join4free.com (Join4Free.Com)
Date: 11 Jun 2001 16:47:23 -0000
Subject: Welcome to Join4Free.Com
Message-ID: <20010611164723.32277.qmail@wwwb4.join4free.com>
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From georgemw at speakeasy.net Mon Jun 11 17:10:12 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:10:12 -0700
Subject: Pap Smear
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010611123741.0331b008@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <200106111600.MAA29162@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3B24FB74.1772.10445CA@localhost>
> >"Hi," the message sent to the police says: "This is Antipedo2001.
> >I have found a PC with known child pornography files on the hard
> >drive. I have included a listing below and included a sample for
> >your convenience."
> >
...
> >While law enforcement agencies cannot search an individual's computer
> >without a warrant, they can act on a tip. The F.B.I., one of the agencies
> >on the Noped list, would not say if it had received tips from this virus
> >program. A Justice Department lawyer said that law enforcement
> >officials could legally conduct a search based on the tip, but added,
> >"That's a very different question from `would law enforcement ever
> >open an investigation based on that information?' "
> >
> >Perhaps most troubling, legal experts say, is the havoc that the virus
> >could wreak on the reputation of people with no involvement in child
> >pornography.
I realize I'm somewhat naive in that I expect things to make sense,
but isn't this just utterly nuts? I mean, imagine an LEO gets an
anonymous tip saying. "I broke into this guy's house and found
child porn there". Check out the house and, sure enough, the
window has been broken into, and right by the broken window
is a pile of child porn. Wouldn't ANY sensible person conclude that
more likely than not it was planted there?
By the way, has this JD lawyer ever READ the constitution?
The 4th clearly states and I quote "no Warrants shall issue, but
upon probable cause SUPPORTED BY OATH OR AFFIRMATION".
(emphasis mine). Clearly computer generated spam
doesn't meet this criterion.
George
BTW,
From amaha at vsnl.net Mon Jun 11 04:46:00 2001
From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Joy)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:16:00 +0530 (IST)
Subject: Thought-A-Day
Message-ID: <20010611114600.D39A71BE0C@bom9.vsnl.net.in>
Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans.
--John Lenon
*****************************************************************************
Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of
Joy. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,
everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful
insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,
successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before.
If you would like your near and dear ones to receive these thoughts which can
change their lives, please send their email addresses to amaha at vsnl.net
We apologise if this email is received by you in error.If you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line.
----Director, Fountain of Joy
From amaha at vsnl.net Mon Jun 11 04:46:01 2001
From: amaha at vsnl.net (Fountain Of Joy)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:16:01 +0530 (IST)
Subject: Thought-A-Day
Message-ID: <20010611114601.A0D1E1BE68@bom9.vsnl.net.in>
Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans.
--John Lenon
*****************************************************************************
Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of
Joy. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,
everyday, for an initial evaluation period. We believe that the meaningful
insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,
successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before.
If you would like your near and dear ones to receive these thoughts which can
change their lives, please send their email addresses to amaha at vsnl.net
We apologise if this email is received by you in error.If you desire to unsubscribe, reply to this email with 'remove' in the subject line.
----Director, Fountain of Joy
From bpayne37 at home.com Mon Jun 11 17:18:48 2001
From: bpayne37 at home.com (bpayne37 at home.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:18:48 -0600
Subject: nailing them to the cross
Message-ID: <3B255FE8.3E8239B1@home.com>
Morales and I are going do it to these creeps.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/
http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/
http://www.nmol.com/users/billp/
ptl, allahu akhbar, etc
Thanks for your help!
From jya at pipeline.com Mon Jun 11 18:52:13 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:52:13 -0700
Subject: Pap Smear
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010611123741.0331b008@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <200106111600.MAA29162@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200106112252.SAA30063@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
A tactic used by the anti-pedo vigilantes and narcs is to
covertly bury pedo porno amongst adult porno and then
finger the adult downloaders as pedophiles knowing the
evidence will be found without the downloaders knowing
it is there until discovered during a raid.
A federal case here in Manhattan got a conviction this way.
Or so I am told by the convict, who got a ten year sentence.
Cleanse your files, kiddie sluts.
And who saw the arousing report in Saturday's New York
Times about the practice of bestiality, yes, sex with
animals, that is now coming out of the closet. The last
taboo is getting its day. One gent goes on talk shows
with his dog to tell what it's like.
Debate rages on whether it's rape if the animal does
not explicitly give consent. Some animal protection
advocates say that the lovemaking is okay with them,
better to go all the way with animals rather than raise
for killing and eating.
(No comparison of Swift's advocacy of raising Irish
children for food.)
Really, in the New York Times, descriptions of French
kissing your dog, and why not, since that is far more
sanitary than doing it with a human.
Someone suggested the article is just part of Hollywood's
promo of "Animal."
From editor at newsletter.join4free.com Mon Jun 11 19:02:26 2001
From: editor at newsletter.join4free.com (editor at newsletter.join4free.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:02:26 -0700 (PDT)
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From atek3 at gmx.net Mon Jun 11 19:44:27 2001
From: atek3 at gmx.net (atek3)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:44:27 -0700
Subject: SCOTUS rulz! (fwd)
References:
Message-ID: <00a101c0f2e9$9a18eb40$05fcb018@c1656070a>
what a frigging nightmare, when the only people standing in the way of a
wholesale rape of our civil liberties are leftists.
atek3
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Choate"
To: "The Club Inferno"
Cc: ;
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 2:30 PM
Subject: CDR: SCOTUS rulz! (fwd)
>
> Where did that scum bag Scalia get the 'in general public use' test?
>
> Geez, these guys make it up as they go along...
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:25:19 -0400 (EDT)
> From: George at Orwellian.Org
> Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
> Subject: CDR: SCOTUS rulz!
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Scotus-Heat-Detector.html
> #
> # June 11, 2001
> #
> # Court Rules Against Heat-Sensor Searches
> #
> # Filed at 11:03 a.m. ET
> #
> # WASHINGTON (AP) -- Police violate the Constitution if they use
> # a heat-sensing device to peer inside a home without a search
> # warrant, the Supreme Court ruled Monday.
> #
> # An unusual lineup of five justices voted to bolster the Fourth
> # Amendment's protection against unreasonable searches and threw
> # out an Oregon man's conviction for growing marijuana.
> #
> # Monday's ruling reversed a lower court decision that said
> # officers' use of a heat-sensing device was not a search of Danny
> # Lee Kyllo's home and therefore they did not need a search warrant.
> #
> # In an opinion written by Justice Antonin Scalia, by many measures
> # the most conservative member of the court, the majority found
> # that the heat detector allowed police to see things they otherwise
> # could not.
> #
> # ``Where, as here, the government uses a device that is not in
> # general public use to explore details of the home that would
> # previously have been unknowable without physical intrusion, the
> # surveillance is a 'search' and is presumptively unreasonable
> # without a warrant,'' Scalia wrote.
> #
> # While the court has previously approved some warrantless searches,
> # this one did not meet tests the court has previously set, Scalia
> # wrote.
> #
> # The decision means the information police gathered with the
> # thermal device -- namely a suspicious pattern of hot spots on
> # the home's exterior walls -- cannot be used against Kyllo.
> #
> # The court sent the case back to lower courts to determine whether
> # police have enough other basis to support the search warrant
> # that was eventually served on Kyllo, and thus whether any of
> # the evidence inside his home can be used against him.
> #
> # Justices Clarence Thomas, David H. Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg
> # and Stephen Breyer joined the majority.
> #
> # Justice John Paul Stevens wrote a dissenting opinion joined by
> # Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, and Justices Sandra Day
> # O'Connor and Anthony M. Kennedy.
>
>
> --
> ____________________________________________________________________
>
> "...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
>
> Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
>
> The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
> Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
> www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
> -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
From bpayne37 at home.com Mon Jun 11 19:46:48 2001
From: bpayne37 at home.com (bpayne37 at home.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:46:48 -0600
Subject: Invictus
Message-ID: <3B258297.672B9687@home.com>
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/
spread the word.
And, of course, keep up-wind
From cv32698 at pchome.com.tw Mon Jun 11 05:54:25 2001
From: cv32698 at pchome.com.tw (cv32698)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:54:25 +0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <004901c0f275$a5786480$e82c20a3@hinet.net>
有無最新目錄
最好有CAD軟體
cv32698 at pchome.com.tw
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From declan at well.com Mon Jun 11 18:24:54 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:24:54 -0400
Subject: ORBS sucked into a black hole!
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:27:17PM -0500
References: <200106111408.KAA09170@www7.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <20010611212454.A2185@cluebot.com>
Nobody's holding a gun to your head and telling you to configure your
servers in a certain way.
ORBS is a reputation-publishing tool. Extremely cypherpunkish. One wonders
why Choate is even on this list instead of commie-privacy-lefty-punks instead.
-Declan
On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:27:17PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 George at Orwellian.Org wrote:
>
> > http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/06/08/orbs/print.html
> > #
> > # A spam cop goes AWOL
> > #
> > # The ORBS blacklist, a controversial tool for stopping unsolicited
> > # e-mail, is suddenly inaccessible.
>
> It does no such thing. What ORBS does do is go around telling MTA
> operators how to configure their servers, or else.
>
> I hope ORBS burns in hell.
>
>
> --
> ____________________________________________________________________
>
> "...where annual election ends, tyranny begins;"
>
> Thomas Jefferson & Samuel Adams
>
> The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
> Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com
> www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
> -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
From measl at mfn.org Mon Jun 11 19:28:56 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:28:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: ORBS sucked into a black hole!
In-Reply-To: <20010611212454.A2185@cluebot.com>
Message-ID:
On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> ORBS is a reputation-publishing tool.
Total Bullshit.
None of my domains have *ever* had a single spamming incident, yet we were
on their list. I guess our reputation was that we were *potential*
spammers?
Fuck ORBS.
> -Declan
--
Yours,
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org
If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From aimee.farr at pobox.com Mon Jun 11 19:29:58 2001
From: aimee.farr at pobox.com (Aimee Farr)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:29:58 -0500
Subject: (on Young's "private language")
In-Reply-To: <3B24C5DF.9422918F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID:
As so many have pointed out, privately.
I was referring to a time before the media was uhm...expatriciated.
Anybody care to cast a lot for their picks of Net/new media written in the
spirit of gentil intellection?
~Aimee
> Aimee Farr wrote:
>
> > Anonymous, (a fellow Sophist? FN1), points out that mass media
> is written
> > for the masses.
> >
> > A larger point is that THOUGHT PRESUPPOSES LANGUAGE. By limiting your
> > language to the lowest common denominator, your limit the
> 'lodestar' of the
> > sign vehicles. American media speaks in the lowest common
> denominator in the
> > interest of social justice and convenience. Some feel it has
> worked an equal
> > injustice by hobbling our ability to THINK. "The limits of my
> language are
> > the limits of my mind." (Wittgenstein)
>
>
> Not in the interests of social justice. In the interests of advertising,
> sales, and ratings.
>
> Ken
From May_Promo at lovehomebiz.com Mon Jun 11 14:42:15 2001
From: May_Promo at lovehomebiz.com (Eric Brown)
Date: 11 Jun 2001 21:42:15 -0000
Subject: FW: (( What do you think?))Get Started Ear...
Message-ID: <20010611214215.27857.qmail@mail1.aweber.com>
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Jun 11 19:47:40 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:47:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [camram-spam] long commentary from a knowledgeable outsider (fwd)
Message-ID:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 14:02:49 -0400
From: "R. A. Hettinga"
To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com, coderpunks at toad.com
Subject: [camram-spam] long commentary from a knowledgeable outsider
--- begin forwarded text
From LadyofthePHB at aol.com Mon Jun 11 19:05:22 2001
From: LadyofthePHB at aol.com (LadyofthePHB at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:05:22 EDT
Subject: untraceable phone calls
Message-ID: <8b.7d60ac7.2856d2e2@aol.com>
When the information is obtained from the phone company ( in this case MCI)
for "untraceable" phone calls, what kind of data will I receive? Is there
ever any way to break this down to something usable? My problem is harrasing
phone calls that appear to be coming from out of state but I believe are
actually coming from a cell phone is state. Any ideas or helpful hints would
be very very appreciated.
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