<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div id="yiv8005067206"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4257"><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:13px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4256"><div id="yiv8005067206yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67495"></div><div id="yiv8005067206yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67499" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div id="yiv8005067206yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67498" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div dir="ltr" id="yiv8005067206yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67497"><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67497" class=""><font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67496" class=""><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_69117" class=""><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_69116" class="">From:</span></b> coderman <coderman@gmail.com><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4361" class=""></font></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503">On 10/31/15, jim bell <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:jdb10987@yahoo.com" href="mailto:jdb10987@yahoo.com" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4364" class="">jdb10987@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4366" class="">>> ... But you don't explain why it's "inefficient". You only allege it.<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67511" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4369" class="">>fair enough. my assertion relies on the fact that conflict is<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4371" class="">>destructive in some manner,</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4374" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">What "conflict"? In what way "destructive"? Which "manner"?</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4378" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503">>" and cooperation is productive in some manner.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4382" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">What "cooperation"? In what way "productive"? Which "manner"?<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4385" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4387" class="">>sometimes, you must defeat bad ideas for the good to thrive:</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4390" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">You don't explain how to "defeat bad ideas". And I am not aware how </div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">you must "defeat" a bad idea. Is there a standard for such "defeat"?</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4395" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4398" class="">>this is the essence of our age: competition for survival of the fittest.<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4400" class="">>yet there is a limit to what competition can achieve.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4403" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">Doesn't sound like you're saying anything useful.<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4406" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4408" class="">---<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4410" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4412" class="">consider that competition can never reach a solution at which full<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4414" class="">cooperation will arrive.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4417" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">I disagree.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4421" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">> thus, if competition defines our current age,which leads to resource exhaustion,</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4425" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">I disagree with your premise.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4429" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4431" class="">>cooperation leads to abundance for all, given sufficient technology,</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4434" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">I disagree with your premise.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4438" class="">>and a better age above our cruel origins.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4441" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">I disagree with your vague conclusion.<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4444" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4446" class="">---<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4448" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4450" class="">this is the great divide:<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4452" class="">do we carry on with cruelty?</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4455" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">Who is "we"?</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4459" class="">>or do we strive for cooperation?</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4462" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">By whose definition?<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4465" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4467" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4469" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4471" class="">>> What is "rational anarchy"? On Google-search, I see a reference to<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4473" class="">>> Heinlein's "The Moon is a harsh mistress". I read that a decade ago, but I<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4475" class="">>> don't connect what you are saying with it.<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4477" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4479" class="">>it is an ideal: a state of society in educated awareness and cohesion,<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4481" class="">>without centralized authority, working toward a collective best end.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4484" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">Sounds like a contradiction in terms. "A collective best end" implies that the</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">interest of individuals is ignored. People don't work that way; never have.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">AP will cause "without centralized authority", but nobody needs to "work</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"> towards a collective best end."<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4490" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4492" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4494" class="">> But again, you don't explain why<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4496" class="">> it's "globally optimal".For that matter, you haven't explained WHAT<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4498" class="">> "globally optimal" means.<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4500" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4502" class="">>it is globally optimal because there is only cooperation. no<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4504" class="">>destruction competition.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4507" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">I disagree that "competition" causes any undesireable "destruction". <br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4510" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4512" class="">>by definition, the efforts of the losers are "waste".</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4515" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">I disagree. Simple example: Communist 'logic' would tell us that we would only</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"> need 3-5 kinds of cell phones or cordless phones. It certainly sounds like</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">having the world manufacture 50-100 kinds is wasteful and inefficient. But the </div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">reality is that we get far better products, and selection of products, even in the</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"> face of this seeming "waste". Evidently, your assumptions are quite false.<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4522" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4524" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4526" class="">> You seem to be assuming a lot today.Further,<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4528" class="">> while it's hard to understand, "globally optimal" sounds like it might assume<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4530" class="">> a compromise, in contrast to equality. Why should I accept<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4532" class="">> something which you call "globally optimal" if someting else is better for<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4534" class="">> ME, personally?<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4536" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4538" class="">bingo. the crux!<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4540" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4542" class="">>a globally cooperative society would chose this, because it is best<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4544" class="">>for all, which is best for you.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4547" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">Wacky 'logic'. </div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4551" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">> (and not in a "I'm going to kill you, to save humanity" triviality sense.)</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4555" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">Wacky 'logic'.<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4558" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4560" class="">>we're getting at the meat of the argument, which is a system and<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4562" class="">>technology and society which leverages technology in a productive<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4564" class="">>manner - rational anarchy - instead of a destructive manner - AP<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4566" class="">>selective killing.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4569" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">Wacky 'logic'.<br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4572" class=""><div class="" id="yqtfd45519"><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4575" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4577" class="">>> Unfortunately, that sounds like a truism. If you agree that AP is better<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4579" class="">>> than the Status Quo, then unless you (or somebody else) can establish<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4581" class="">>> somethingis better than AP, you don't establish that AP shouldn't be the<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4583" class="">>> goal, at least temporarily.</div><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4585" class="">>i am aiming for something better.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4588" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">You haven't found it yet. Keep trying. You are just spewing vague ideas.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4592" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4594" class="">>i don't expect to convince anyone until the argument is formed. i also<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4596" class="">>reserve the right to proclaim that better options exist.</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4599" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">You can "proclaim" anything you like. That won't make it true, however.<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4602" class=""><br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4604" class="">>this is my beef with AP: that we may see it a solution, in near term,<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4606" class="">>missing a greener pasture at the distance...</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4609" class=""></div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">Have you ever heard the saying, "The perfect is the enemy of the good"? One way</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">to sabotage the search for 'the good' is to claim that there is 'the perfect' still out there</div><div class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503" dir="ltr">somewhere. You seem to be doing that.<br clear="none" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4614" class=""><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4616" class=""> Jim Bell<br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4618" class=""></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4620" class=""><br id="yui_3_16_0_1_1446354752188_4622" class=""></div></div><div class="yiv8005067206y_msg_container" dir="ltr" id="yiv8005067206yui_3_16_0_1_1446334997953_67503"><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yiv8005067206yqt1909075404" id="yiv8005067206yqtfd54971"><div class="yiv8005067206yqt5412428285" id="yiv8005067206yqtfd61460"><br clear="none"></div><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div></div><div class="yiv8005067206yqt1909075404" id="yiv8005067206yqtfd65018"> </div></div><div class="yiv8005067206yqt1909075404" id="yiv8005067206yqtfd66779"> </div></div><div class="yiv8005067206yqt1909075404" id="yiv8005067206yqtfd85938"> </div></div></div></div></div></body></html>