<div dir="ltr">Please unsubscribe<div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:00 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cypherpunks-request@cpunks.org" target="_blank">cypherpunks-request@cpunks.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send cypherpunks mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...] (Cathal Garvey)<br>
2. Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...] (Mark Steward)<br>
3. Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL] (grarpamp)<br>
4. Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...] (Cathal Garvey)<br>
5. Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]<br>
(Georgi Guninski)<br>
6. Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL] (Cathal Garvey)<br>
7. Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...] (Griffin Boyce)<br>
8. Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL] (grarpamp)<br>
9. What is offtopic and what should be avoided on this list?<br>
(Georgi Guninski)<br>
10. Re: Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...] (stef)<br>
11. Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]<br>
(Georgi Guninski)<br>
12. Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]<br>
(Georgi Guninski)<br>
13. Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...] (grarpamp)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 10:21:42 +0000<br>
From: Cathal Garvey <<a href="mailto:cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me">cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...]<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:54AD08B6.1070603@cathalgarvey.me">54AD08B6.1070603@cathalgarvey.me</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
> You know the history and reasons the internet has against top<br>
> posting, especially on newgroups and mailing lists.<br>
<br>
I know the reasons but they don't apply to me, nor to a growing majority<br>
of users who don't use text-only clients. Most clients these days are<br>
pre-configured to hide replied-to text unless directly quoted, making<br>
pre-quoted text actually more irritating than sub-quoted.<br>
<br>
Despite this, I *do* use text-only mode, and nevertheless find scrolling<br>
down to find replies inline irksome.<br>
<br>
So, as I mentioned previously, this is a cultural difference; I find<br>
your preferred mode annoying, and you find mine annoying. Tough; you<br>
don't own the internet, and neither do I. I won't waste my time<br>
conforming to your expectations, and you won't to mine. So we get over<br>
it and move on.<br>
<br>
..did you really call top-posting "abuse of other people"? Dude, get<br>
some perspective!<br>
<br>
On 07/01/15 10:07, grarpamp wrote:<br>
>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 5:52 AM, Cathal Garvey <<a href="mailto:cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me">cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> However, sorry, but I'll continue emailing as I always have done; if I<br>
>> come from a different internet culture to you, and if top-posting is<br>
>> anathema to you but not I, that's just<br>
><br>
> ... lazy.<br>
><br>
> You know the history and reasons the internet has against top<br>
> posting, especially on newgroups and mailing lists. You and everyone<br>
> else top posting are just lazy culture at the expense/abuse of other<br>
> people, in particular the brain power needed to decipher your<br>
> messages in both direction and context. Stop wasting hundreds of<br>
> other people's cycles and invest some of your own. Learn trimming<br>
> and interleaving replies, google it, make your mail art, not dog shit.<br>
><br>
> (: shitter a as but<br>
> asses lazy your<br>
> to cost no it's<br>
> all After. off else<br>
> everyone pissing on<br>
> keep, want all you<br>
> what that's if But.<br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 10:37:43 +0000<br>
From: Mark Steward <<a href="mailto:marksteward@gmail.com">marksteward@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: grarpamp <<a href="mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...]<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAPyX2ncw3jDRW43TvK8OA5%2BFE43TX8orPQG3wnKSczRO07d7ZQ@mail.gmail.com">CAPyX2ncw3jDRW43TvK8OA5+FE43TX8orPQG3wnKSczRO07d7ZQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
UNSUBSCRIBE<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:07 AM, grarpamp <<a href="mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 5:52 AM, Cathal Garvey <<br>
> <a href="mailto:cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me">cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me</a>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > However, sorry, but I'll continue emailing as I always have done; if I<br>
> > come from a different internet culture to you, and if top-posting is<br>
> > anathema to you but not I, that's just<br>
><br>
> ... lazy.<br>
><br>
> You know the history and reasons the internet has against top<br>
> posting, especially on newgroups and mailing lists. You and everyone<br>
> else top posting are just lazy culture at the expense/abuse of other<br>
> people, in particular the brain power needed to decipher your<br>
> messages in both direction and context. Stop wasting hundreds of<br>
> other people's cycles and invest some of your own. Learn trimming<br>
> and interleaving replies, google it, make your mail art, not dog shit.<br>
><br>
> (: shitter a as but<br>
> asses lazy your<br>
> to cost no it's<br>
> all After. off else<br>
> everyone pissing on<br>
> keep, want all you<br>
> what that's if But.<br>
><br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 06:04:15 -0500<br>
From: grarpamp <<a href="mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAD2Ti28cjFjavRrN_5vVtFo2-CpJKj%2BMBROh%2B0s%2BL0BDpAXxpA@mail.gmail.com">CAD2Ti28cjFjavRrN_5vVtFo2-CpJKj+MBROh+0s+L0BDpAXxpA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 4:48 AM, Cathal Garvey<br>
<<a href="mailto:cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me">cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me</a>> wrote:<br>
> Patents and profiting<br>
> from patents is an unrelated discussion to copyright-based licensing.<br>
<br>
Patents came about a bit before copyright. Today patents<br>
talk about licensing, and copyright talks about patent. They're<br>
not exactly inseparable.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property</a><br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent</a><br>
<br>
> But there are plenty of people out there willing to Embrace Extend<br>
> Extinguish, which GPL protects against (patent clauses and copyleft) and BSD<br>
> does not.<br>
<br>
You cannot extinguish BSD software. You may close your<br>
copy. However the original branch unaffected by that. Nor can<br>
you patent your copy of BSD code, the code itself exists as prior art.<br>
Copyleft or not is of no concern to actual extinguishment.<br>
Patenting your subsequent mods to code may yes block<br>
others from moving in that same direction. That's really a<br>
question of patent reform, not license. Restricting patents<br>
in license like GPL is interesting and useful (presuming<br>
tested as enforceable) if you're worried about direction.<br>
Don't mistake patent restrictions as freedom though.<br>
<br>
As Juan may tell you, both patents and license are bullshit,<br>
at least to some people.<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 11:16:17 +0000<br>
From: Cathal Garvey <<a href="mailto:cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me">cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...]<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:54AD1581.9080108@cathalgarvey.me">54AD1581.9080108@cathalgarvey.me</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
AFAIC there's nothing left to say, so you'll hear no more from me.<br>
Sorry, not something I especially like discussing nor seen discussing. I<br>
did enjoy writing the one-liner though.<br>
<br>
On 07/01/15 10:37, Mark Steward wrote:<br>
> UNSUBSCRIBE<br>
><br>
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:07 AM, grarpamp <<a href="mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com">grarpamp@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 5:52 AM, Cathal Garvey<br>
> <<a href="mailto:cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me">cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me">cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me</a>>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > However, sorry, but I'll continue emailing as I always have done;<br>
> if I<br>
> > come from a different internet culture to you, and if top-posting is<br>
> > anathema to you but not I, that's just<br>
><br>
> ... lazy.<br>
><br>
> You know the history and reasons the internet has against top<br>
> posting, especially on newgroups and mailing lists. You and everyone<br>
> else top posting are just lazy culture at the expense/abuse of other<br>
> people, in particular the brain power needed to decipher your<br>
> messages in both direction and context. Stop wasting hundreds of<br>
> other people's cycles and invest some of your own. Learn trimming<br>
> and interleaving replies, google it, make your mail art, not dog shit.<br>
><br>
> (: shitter a as but<br>
> asses lazy your<br>
> to cost no it's<br>
> all After. off else<br>
> everyone pissing on<br>
> keep, want all you<br>
> what that's if But.<br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 13:25:18 +0200<br>
From: Georgi Guninski <<a href="mailto:guninski@guninski.com">guninski@guninski.com</a>><br>
To: grarpamp <<a href="mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]<br>
Message-ID: <20150107112518.GB2512@sivokote.iziade.m$><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jan 07, 2015 at 01:57:25AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:<br>
> > Georgi write:<br>
> > Dudes, you still using GPL GCC?<br>
><br>
> Actually, no.<br>
><br>
<br>
OK, this might have finally happened and I have been<br>
trolling bsd fanatics about gcc since at least 4 years<br>
(maybe more).<br>
<br>
Not an expert on compilers, but gcc has some extensions like<br>
__gnu*, some of which are widely used. Not sure how clang<br>
currently deals with them.<br>
<br>
Building just the kernel with clang is likely possibly, but<br>
bare kernel is not a distro.<br>
<br>
Till recently, I believe one couldn't build desktop<br>
environment only with clang, might be wrong on this.<br>
<br>
Unrelated: I am wondering why bigcorps like google/linksys<br>
use linux, when they could have used *bsd like<br>
apple/juniper.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> <a href="https://bitrig.org/10.html" target="_blank">https://bitrig.org/10.html</a><br>
> <a href="http://wiki.netbsd.org/tutorials/pkgsrc/clang/" target="_blank">http://wiki.netbsd.org/tutorials/pkgsrc/clang/</a><br>
> <a href="https://wiki.freebsd.org/BuildingFreeBSDWithClang" target="_blank">https://wiki.freebsd.org/BuildingFreeBSDWithClang</a><br>
> <a href="http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/49906/why-is-freebsd-deprecating-gcc-in-favor-of-clang-llvm" target="_blank">http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/49906/why-is-freebsd-deprecating-gcc-in-favor-of-clang-llvm</a><br>
> <a href="http://www.dragonflydigest.com/2014/10/22/14942.html" target="_blank">http://www.dragonflydigest.com/2014/10/22/14942.html</a><br>
> <a href="http://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/developer/clang/" target="_blank">http://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/developer/clang/</a><br>
> <a href="http://www.thejemreport.com/more-on-openbsds-new-compiler/" target="_blank">http://www.thejemreport.com/more-on-openbsds-new-compiler/</a><br>
> <a href="http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20091228231142" target="_blank">http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20091228231142</a><br>
> <a href="http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=137530560232232&w=2" target="_blank">http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=137530560232232&w=2</a><br>
><br>
> <a href="http://clang.debian.net/" target="_blank">http://clang.debian.net/</a><br>
> <a href="http://llvm.linuxfoundation.org/" target="_blank">http://llvm.linuxfoundation.org/</a><br>
><br>
> <a href="https://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD" target="_blank">https://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD</a><br>
> <a href="http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/bsd/fbsd/" target="_blank">http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/bsd/fbsd/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 3:45 PM, Lodewijk andré de la porte <<a href="mailto:l@odewijk.nl">l@odewijk.nl</a>> wrote:<br>
> > GPL when something is everyone's property,<br>
><br>
> Unless you're not "in", then suddenly they get ugly like you<br>
> broke their communal bong hit or something. They used to cry<br>
> if you didn't pass the code around, now they sic their lawyers<br>
> on you. That's not very free.<br>
><br>
> > BSD when you ... just don't care.<br>
><br>
> Exactly, everyone is in, do whatever you want. And it's almost<br>
> as unlimited as you can get under today's mandatory law for<br>
> those who say copyright is fiction. These days BSD says<br>
> basically two things:<br>
> 1) Do what you want.<br>
> 2) Author disclaims liability.<br>
><br>
> It's hard to be more free than that under current law, yet...<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 11:33:37 +0000<br>
From: Cathal Garvey <<a href="mailto:cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me">cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:54AD1991.1010706@cathalgarvey.me">54AD1991.1010706@cathalgarvey.me</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
> You cannot extinguish BSD software. You may close your<br>
> copy. However the original branch unaffected by that. Nor can<br>
> you patent your copy of BSD code, the code itself exists as prior art.<br>
<br>
Embrace/Extend/Extinguish works by taking a codebase that can be<br>
improved (all codebases can be), making those improvements, and<br>
patenting the *improvements*. You can often successfully patent the<br>
original work, too, because the patent system is trash and open<br>
developers rarely have the resources to fight you.<br>
<br>
The original code remains open ("Yay!"), but now the open developers are<br>
not technically entitled according to patent law to make the obvious<br>
improvements they were probably planning to make, because they've been<br>
patented by an extinguisher (whether MS, Apple, Yahoo, Google, FB, or<br>
merely the competitor-next-door).<br>
<br>
Don't tell me that the obviousness of the obvious-next-steps will<br>
prevent patenting, because that's hogwash. This is the reality, it's<br>
what happens out there in the world.<br>
<br>
The GPL acknowledges this by forbidding suits within the scope of the<br>
work (I think: GPL experts on-list?), preventing E3 from occurring.<br>
Other licenses often take steps in this direction, but the ultra-short<br>
"friendly and permissive" licenses usually don't, or do so in such a<br>
terse and legally unenforceable way that they might as well not be.<br>
<br>
> Don't mistake patent restrictions as freedom though.<br>
<br>
Freedoms can be implicitly restricted merely by the act of withholding<br>
essential things. Food, water can be restricted by "private ownership"<br>
of a well to the degree that others in an area starve to death or<br>
subjugate themselves to slavery: this is "freedom" to own something<br>
exclusively becoming the instrument of enslaving others.<br>
<br>
In a less dramatic but still important way, the "freedom" to proprietise<br>
a code-base can starve others of their freedoms by withholding what they<br>
need to exercise them, and potentially making them "slaves" to the code<br>
that has all the obvious improvements while forbidding free alternatives<br>
(patents).<br>
<br>
So, patent restrictions are freedom; they prevent the limitation of<br>
others' freedoms (being attacked with patents) by restricting the<br>
freedom of the licensor/licensee (to create or enforce patents).<br>
Preserving the rights of the few to patent and attack others opens the<br>
door to the abrogation of others' rights. Where, in this case, "others"<br>
can include the original developers whose work is co-opted,<br>
patent-encumbered, and proprietised.<br>
<br>
Freedom is not merely defined in law but in experience, and simply<br>
removing explicit limitations on freedom (copyleft licenses) does not<br>
mean that the total freedom in the world has increased.<br>
<br>
On 07/01/15 11:04, grarpamp wrote:<br>
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 4:48 AM, Cathal Garvey<br>
> <<a href="mailto:cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me">cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me</a>> wrote:<br>
>> Patents and profiting<br>
>> from patents is an unrelated discussion to copyright-based licensing.<br>
><br>
> Patents came about a bit before copyright. Today patents<br>
> talk about licensing, and copyright talks about patent. They're<br>
> not exactly inseparable.<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property</a><br>
> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent</a><br>
><br>
>> But there are plenty of people out there willing to Embrace Extend<br>
>> Extinguish, which GPL protects against (patent clauses and copyleft) and BSD<br>
>> does not.<br>
><br>
> You cannot extinguish BSD software. You may close your<br>
> copy. However the original branch unaffected by that. Nor can<br>
> you patent your copy of BSD code, the code itself exists as prior art.<br>
> Copyleft or not is of no concern to actual extinguishment.<br>
> Patenting your subsequent mods to code may yes block<br>
> others from moving in that same direction. That's really a<br>
> question of patent reform, not license. Restricting patents<br>
> in license like GPL is interesting and useful (presuming<br>
> tested as enforceable) if you're worried about direction.<br>
> Don't mistake patent restrictions as freedom though.<br>
><br>
> As Juan may tell you, both patents and license are bullshit,<br>
> at least to some people.<br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 06:59:19 -0500<br>
From: Griffin Boyce <<a href="mailto:griffin@cryptolab.net">griffin@cryptolab.net</a>><br>
To: Cypherpunks <<a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...]<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:ee4925d9607c7bb65f94fb01dee73127@cryptolab.net">ee4925d9607c7bb65f94fb01dee73127@cryptolab.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed<br>
<br>
<br>
"Cypherpunks write code, not flamewars."<br>
~Jurre van Bergen<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 8<br>
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 07:00:24 -0500<br>
From: grarpamp <<a href="mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Georgi Guninski <<a href="mailto:guninski@guninski.com">guninski@guninski.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAD2Ti28S1tihe3xJqmaBbwsfZme=<a href="mailto:13b4KBCPQ%2B9qXo%2B-eRSMbQ@mail.gmail.com">13b4KBCPQ+9qXo+-eRSMbQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 6:25 AM, Georgi Guninski <<a href="mailto:guninski@guninski.com">guninski@guninski.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Building just the kernel with clang is likely possibly, but<br>
> bare kernel is not a distro.<br>
><br>
> Till recently, I believe one couldn't build desktop<br>
> environment only with clang, might be wrong on this.<br>
<br>
As in the links, the entire FreeBSD kernel, base,<br>
and most of it's ~25,000 ports build with clang. X,<br>
browsers, whatever. The others are not as far along.<br>
Not bad considering clang itself is a "till recently".<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 9<br>
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 14:05:53 +0200<br>
From: Georgi Guninski <<a href="mailto:guninski@guninski.com">guninski@guninski.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a><br>
Subject: What is offtopic and what should be avoided on this list?<br>
Message-ID: <20150107120553.GC2512@sivokote.iziade.m$><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
What is offtopic and what should be avoided on this list?<br>
<br>
I would like to know what is offtopic and what should be<br>
avoided on this list.<br>
<br>
Looking for an answer from authoritative source, not a<br>
subscriber of doubtful quality.<br>
<br>
Appears to me wide variety of topics are discussed.<br>
<br>
Though the list is unmoderated, I suspect the dudes in<br>
charge of the list might take action against flooding with<br>
gross nonsense or commercial spam.<br>
<br>
Just trying to avoid being banned from unmoderated list ;),<br>
the way the heavily censored (in theory small moderated)<br>
Fyodor's full disclosure blocked me at SMTP level.<br>
<br>
Best of luck,<br>
--<br>
georgi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 10<br>
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 13:45:29 +0100<br>
From: stef <<a href="mailto:s@ctrlc.hu">s@ctrlc.hu</a>><br>
To: Cathal Garvey <<a href="mailto:cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me">cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...]<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20150107124529.GB7530@ctrlc.hu">20150107124529.GB7530@ctrlc.hu</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jan 07, 2015 at 10:21:42AM +0000, Cathal Garvey wrote:<br>
> > You know the history and reasons the internet has against top<br>
> > posting, especially on newgroups and mailing lists.<br>
><br>
> I know the reasons but they don't apply to me, nor to a growing majority of<br>
<br>
how embarrasing, how ignorant. gtfo pls.<br>
<br>
--<br>
otr fp: <a href="https://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/otr.txt" target="_blank">https://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/otr.txt</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 11<br>
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 14:47:14 +0200<br>
From: Georgi Guninski <<a href="mailto:guninski@guninski.com">guninski@guninski.com</a>><br>
To: grarpamp <<a href="mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]<br>
Message-ID: <20150107124714.GD2512@sivokote.iziade.m$><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jan 07, 2015 at 07:00:24AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:<br>
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 6:25 AM, Georgi Guninski <<a href="mailto:guninski@guninski.com">guninski@guninski.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > Building just the kernel with clang is likely possibly, but<br>
> > bare kernel is not a distro.<br>
> ><br>
> > Till recently, I believe one couldn't build desktop<br>
> > environment only with clang, might be wrong on this.<br>
><br>
> As in the links, the entire FreeBSD kernel, base,<br>
> and most of it's ~25,000 ports build with clang. X,<br>
> browsers, whatever. The others are not as far along.<br>
> Not bad considering clang itself is a "till recently".<br>
<br>
Thanks, probably i should stop trolling bsd for gcc so far,<br>
except for historical reasons that RMS & co gave them the<br>
toolchain to get started and be alive.<br>
<br>
I suppose _some_ of the ~25,000 ports _don't build_ with clang,<br>
giving me a short opportunity of trolling -- you still need<br>
gcc for _all_ ports?<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 12<br>
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 15:25:25 +0200<br>
From: Georgi Guninski <<a href="mailto:guninski@guninski.com">guninski@guninski.com</a>><br>
To: Lodewijk andré de la porte <<a href="mailto:l@odewijk.nl">l@odewijk.nl</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Rant on BSD vs GPL was [Good ol' BSD vs. GPL]<br>
Message-ID: <20150107132525.GE2512@sivokote.iziade.m$><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1<br>
<br>
On Tue, Jan 06, 2015 at 02:45:16PM -0600, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:<br>
> 2015-01-06 18:51 GMT+01:00 Georgi Guninski <<a href="mailto:guninski@guninski.com">guninski@guninski.com</a>>:<br>
><br>
> > Haskell language shit depending on GCC and claiming they "compile with<br>
> > portable<br>
> > assembler" don't make sense to me too, fuck Haskelli and its monads,<br>
> > sorry.<br>
> ><br>
><br>
> Not really sure how this factors into it. There's more than one Haskell<br>
> compiler, you know? Haskell and monads are languages, and do not depend<br>
<br>
<br>
I suppose I trolled about GHC: <a href="https://www.haskell.org/ghc/license" target="_blank">https://www.haskell.org/ghc/license</a><br>
<br>
Since I am in a trolling mood, let me give you the following<br>
benchmark to check your favorite language for speed:<br>
<br>
The fibonacci numbers: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number</a><br>
are defined by the linear recurrence:<br>
F(0)=0,F(1)=1,F(n)=F(n-1)+F(n-2) [1].<br>
<br>
Using numerology, you can compute F(n) in O(log(n)).<br>
<br>
Compute F(n) via the slow recurrence [1].<br>
<br>
Question: In haskell (or in your favourite language), how<br>
long does it take to compute F(2^32) modulo 2^32?<br>
<br>
Modulo 2^32 means working with C int's.<br>
<br>
The haskell fanatic called this "micro-benchmark".<br>
If you work in excel, you don't care if the popup shows in<br>
0.1 or in 0.9 seconds.<br>
If you work with loops to 2^34, you might care if you use C<br>
or haskell IMHO.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
--<br>
Georgi<br>
<br>
<br>
> upon compilation to have meaning. Monads are like, kinda inevitable. You<br>
> have them in your code, you just don't know.<br>
><br>
> As for the rest, GPL when something is everyone's property, BSD when you're<br>
> actually just a company pushing a product or just don't care. There's not<br>
> much between GPL and BSD. I'd like a structure where you have to pay to get<br>
> in, but once you're in it's like GPL (but only with others who are "in"),<br>
> instead of every closed source license out there.<br>
><br>
> Meanwhile we must not depend upon the bullshit copyright system to provide<br>
> us with compensation. Distribution is no longer a challenge and no profit<br>
> can be extracted from it anymore. Stop it already. Please stop ruining<br>
> reality to create artificial scarcity, I want it not.<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 13<br>
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 10:32:08 -0500<br>
From: grarpamp <<a href="mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:cypherpunks@cpunks.org">cypherpunks@cpunks.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Please stop top posting [was: TrueCrupt...]<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAD2Ti2939Q7WUqyZ+BAZ4eR1Ti31XZLOPo7K3=<a href="mailto:3r12iFWu9GRA@mail.gmail.com">3r12iFWu9GRA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 5:21 AM, Cathal Garvey<br>
<<a href="mailto:cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me">cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me</a>> wrote:<br>
> Despite this, I *do* use text-only mode<br>
<br>
That's wise and perhaps even generous of you, thanks.<br>
<br>
> scrolling [...] irksome<br>
<br>
Someday they'll get tired of costly context "huh's", reading<br>
backwards, and wasted mail space... and realize scrolling with<br>
trim and interleave is a naturally elegant pairing.<br>
<br>
> pre-configured<br>
<br>
They might even get so irked as to raise a finger to configure that.<br>
<br>
> cultural<br>
<br>
I hear configuring a lamp and turning pages in books is irksome<br>
these days too, what with swiping on backlit screens being so<br>
superior. Sad this culture.<br>
<br>
> I know the reasons<br>
> [...]<br>
> ..did you really call top-posting "abuse of other people"?<br>
<br>
Yes, and I called them lazy too. My post stands.<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
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